JAPAN / 日本

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xav
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by xav »

My "tour" aboard JS Kumano FFM-2.
We were quite limited in the areas we could film, so it is mostly the interview of the Commanding Officer + some file footage.
Still a rare access though

JS Kumano (FFM-2)「くまの」 Mogami-class Frigate of the JMSDF
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

Naval News reporting the two Japanese ~ 20,000 Aegis System Equipped BMD Vessels with initial funding this year for design and aquisition with 128 VLS cells for SM-3 Block 2A and SM-6 missiles due to be commissioned in FY27 and FY28.
Noticable is that Japan with its world class shipbuilding industry planning to commission the first ship one year before the first T26 HMS Glasgow due to be commissioned in Oct 2028, which dates back to March 2010 with the initial Assessment Phase design contract award and has been in build since July 2017.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... vls-cells/

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by Jake1992 »

NickC wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 12:10 Naval News reporting the two Japanese ~ 20,000 Aegis System Equipped BMD Vessels with initial funding this year for design and aquisition with 128 VLS cells for SM-3 Block 2A and SM-6 missiles due to be commissioned in FY27 and FY28.
Noticable is that Japan with its world class shipbuilding industry planning to commission the first ship one year before the first T26 HMS Glasgow due to be commissioned in Oct 2028, which dates back to March 2010 with the initial Assessment Phase design contract award and has been in build since July 2017.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... vls-cells/
It’s a surprisingly low number of VLS for a vessel of that size and role, when you compare it to the of the USN Ticonderoga class having 122 or S.K Sejong the Great-class having 128 plus 16 canisters. I would have thought something of this size and role would be having around the 200 VLS mark.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

Jake1992 wrote: 06 Jun 2023, 00:44
NickC wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 12:10 Naval News reporting the two Japanese ~ 20,000 Aegis System Equipped BMD Vessels with initial funding this year for design and aquisition with 128 VLS cells for SM-3 Block 2A and SM-6 missiles due to be commissioned in FY27 and FY28.
Noticable is that Japan with its world class shipbuilding industry planning to commission the first ship one year before the first T26 HMS Glasgow due to be commissioned in Oct 2028, which dates back to March 2010 with the initial Assessment Phase design contract award and has been in build since July 2017.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... vls-cells/
It’s a surprisingly low number of VLS for a vessel of that size and role, when you compare it to the of the USN Ticonderoga class having 122 or S.K Sejong the Great-class having 128 plus 16 canisters. I would have thought something of this size and role would be having around the 200 VLS mark.
A good point, though do wonder how much of the approx. 20,000t ship displacement is required to take the very large SPY-7 radar needed for BMD, weight concentrated high in the GaN T/R Modules of the flat panel arrays in the deck house, SPY-7 was originally planned as part of the two Japanese Aegis Ashore installations before cancellation, and presume the same radars would have been part of the March '22 $700 million proposed Lockheed deal for UK Ballistic Missile Defence.

Another point to consider is how many missiles required to meet the envisaged operational need and the budget to fill those 128 VLS cells, cost of SN-3 Block 2As, did see quoted at $36.4 million each in '22, to fill those 128 cells would total $4.7 billion :crazy:

PS - US Navy have stated that radar sensitivity scales as a cube of the size of the radar aperture.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Design of the remaining 10 FFMs, of the total of 22, has been selected (12 FFM Batch-1 is the Mogami class).
New FFM (Batch2) is also from MHI, but significantly improved in its "frigate" like capability (with improved AAW), while retaining "multi-purpose (MCM and ASW etc)" capabilities.

Standard Displacement 4880t : note this is larger than Takanami-class DD, which is 6300t FLD.
Length 142m (9m longer than Mogami-class FFM), width ~17m, top speed 30+ knots with CODAG (1 GT and 2 Diesels)
VLS with SAM control FCS radar systems (XRIM-4 derivative or ESSM blk2, may be just ESSM) (see note*1)
SeaRAM, SSM, Helicopter, UAV/USV/UUV for MCM and other tasks, anti-sub torpedo tubes,
VDS+TASS and "multi-function" hull sonar (note*2)

Note-1: Significantly improved AAW capability is the point here. Mogami-class FFM "Batch1" currently do not have VLS, just FFBNW. Actually, VLS was ordered in the JFY2023 budget, but it is only for J-ASROC, no AAW missile. In other words, Mogami-class is SeaRAM only in its AAW. Practically, I think she will be only operating under the air force air cover, or together with AEGIS DDGs.
Note-2: Mogami has only "mine hunting" hull sonar, in addition to ASW VDS+TASS.

[EDIT] It is sometimes claimed that the Mogami class's flightdeck with sheer at stern sometimes invokes water coming into the hangar, and there were rumors that the FFM Batch 2 will modify it. Looking at the image, it looks like fixed = now the flight deck is flat.

All information is in Japanese, but I hope you can try deepl or alike.
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/pinup/pinup050825.pdf
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 27 Aug 2023, 04:41 Design of the remaining 10 FFMs, of the total of 22, has been selected (12 FFM Batch-1 is the Mogami class).
New FFM (Batch2) is also from MHI, but significantly improved in its "frigate" like capability (with improved AAW), while retaining "multi-purpose (MCM and ASW etc)" capabilities.

Standard Displacement 4880t : note this is larger than Takanami-class DD, which is 6300t FLD.
Length 142m (9m longer than Mogami-class FFM), width ~17m, top speed 30+ knots with CODAG (1 GT and 2 Diesels)
VLS with SAM control FCS radar systems (XRIM-4 derivative or ESSM blk2, may be just ESSM) (see note*1)
SeaRAM, SSM, Helicopter, UAV/USV/UUV for MCM and other tasks, anti-sub torpedo tubes,
VDS+TASS and "multi-function" hull sonar (note*2)

Note-1: Significantly improved AAW capability is the point here. Mogami-class FFM "Batch1" currently do not have VLS, just FFBNW. Actually, VLS was ordered in the JFY2023 budget, but it is only for J-ASROC, no AAW missile. In other words, Mogami-class is SeaRAM only in its AAW. Practically, I think she will be only operating under the air force air cover, or together with AEGIS DDGs.
Note-2: Mogami has only "mine hunting" hull sonar, in addition to ASW VDS+TASS.

[EDIT] It is sometimes claimed that the Mogami class's flightdeck with sheer at stern sometimes invokes water coming into the hangar, and there were rumors that the FFM Batch 2 will modify it. Looking at the image, it looks like fixed = now the flight deck is flat.

All information is in Japanese, but I hope you can try deepl or alike.
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/pinup/pinup050825.pdf
Thanks for info on the Batch 2, but Naval News saying Batch 1 ordered from 2021 will have the 16 Mk 41s installed. Understand cost approx. $500 million / £400 million each for the planned class of 22 frigates, original contract awarded in Aug '17, four delivered to date at a rate of two per year.
Funding for the installation of Mk. 41 VLS

Initially, the Mogami-class was only “fitted for but not with” (FFBNW) Mk. 41 vertical launch system (VLS). This changed at the end of 2021: According to our Japan-based contributor, Yoshihiro Inaba, In late November, the Japanese Ministry of Defense announced the supplementary budget for FY2021, which included a budget for two VLSs sets for FFM ships. Two FFM frigates will get 16 cells each (allowing for a total of 32 quad-parcked ESSM each). The total supplementary budget is about $6.8 billion, of which about $74 million is for the purchase of the VLS shipsets. Originally, the FFM 9 and 10 specified in the defense budget request for FY2022 included a budget for VLS. Therefore the VLS specified in this supplemental budget is for installation on any of the FFM ships 1 through 8.
From <https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/ds ... %e3%80%8d/>

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NickC wrote: 27 Aug 2023, 13:15 Thanks for info on the Batch 2, but Naval News saying Batch 1 ordered from 2021 will have the 16 Mk 41s installed.
Thanks.

Actually, Mk41 order was on and off and a bit controversial. The first two sets were budgeted in JFY2021 supplementary budget for FY2021 (voted on late December 2021), but the 2 FFMs in JSY2022 order had no VLS, and remaining 10-sets of VLS was ordered in JFY2023 initial (spring) budget.

By the way, to my understanding, Naval News comment is wrong on saying they will get ESSM. Who knows, it may change, but at least at this moment, it is said to be only for J-ASROC = a Mach-2 30-40 km range ASROC.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 27 Aug 2023, 14:44
NickC wrote: 27 Aug 2023, 13:15 Thanks for info on the Batch 2, but Naval News saying Batch 1 ordered from 2021 will have the 16 Mk 41s installed.
Thanks.

Actually, Mk41 order was on and off and a bit controversial. The first two sets were budgeted in JFY2021 supplementary budget for FY2021 (voted on late December 2021), but the 2 FFMs in JSY2022 order had no VLS, and remaining 10-sets of VLS was ordered in JFY2023 initial (spring) budget.

By the way, to my understanding, Naval News comment is wrong on saying they will get ESSM. Who knows, it may change, but at least at this moment, it is said to be only for J-ASROC = a Mach-2 30-40 km range ASROC.
I'm confused as Japanese Navy already have ESSMs e.g. "Japan Navy's Akizuki class destroyer JS Suzutsuki fires ESSM missile " 28th June 2023, so would expect them to be installed on the Mogami class, those fitted with the Mk 41's.
PS Would the J-ASROC be a more capable buy for the T26 than the older shorter range USN ASROC which dates back to the 1960's.

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/n ... contracts/

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by serge750 »

Now the UK are getting closer to japan with GCAP ( fingers crossed ) i wonder what are the chances of getting a few "J-ASROC" to help fill our mk41 on the T26 & T31 just incase a merlin is not availiable or bad weather when it cant launch ? maybe drones can do the job sooner than expected ?

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by Timmymagic »

serge750 wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 12:10 Now the UK are getting closer to japan with GCAP ( fingers crossed ) i wonder what are the chances of getting a few "J-ASROC" to help fill our mk41 on the T26 & T31 just incase a merlins is availiable or bad when it cant launch ? maybe drones can do the job sooner than expected ?
Hopefully we don't. Because we'd need to integrate in our VLS and CMS, but the Japanese Asroc only brings a marginal increase in range. The only rocket launched torpedo out there worth having is a little closer to home. The Italian MILAS system which has twice the range and doesn't use VL space. MBDA would also happily integrate Stingray, of which we have many hundreds in stock.
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by serge750 »

Didnt know the italians had that, thanks

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Timmymagic wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 12:12
serge750 wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 12:10 Now the UK are getting closer to japan with GCAP ( fingers crossed ) i wonder what are the chances of getting a few "J-ASROC" to help fill our mk41 on the T26 & T31 just incase a merlins is availiable or bad when it cant launch ? maybe drones can do the job sooner than expected ?
Hopefully we don't. Because we'd need to integrate in our VLS and CMS, but the Japanese Asroc only brings a marginal increase in range. The only rocket launched torpedo out there worth having is a little closer to home. The Italian MILAS system which has twice the range and doesn't use VL space. MBDA would also happily integrate Stingray, of which we have many hundreds in stock.
Type 07 J-ASROC has "twice" the rage of VL-ASROC (which as 22 km range). On paper, T07 J-ASROC's range is 44 km. It is longer than MILAS's 35 km range.

Also, T07 J-ASROC is super sonic, Mach 2.
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by Timmymagic »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 13:38 Type 07 J-ASROC has "twice" the rage of VL-ASROC (which as 22 km range). On paper, T07 J-ASROC's range is 44 km. It is longer than MILAS's 35 km range.
I've never seen any evidence that Type 07 has longer range than 30km anywhere.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Timmymagic wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 14:14
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 13:38 Type 07 J-ASROC has "twice" the rage of VL-ASROC (which as 22 km range). On paper, T07 J-ASROC's range is 44 km. It is longer than MILAS's 35 km range.
I've never seen any evidence that Type 07 has longer range than 30km anywhere.
No evidence. Japanese missiles' specifications are "hidden". What I am saying is, the requirement for T07 J-ASROC is to "double the range" and "double the speed" = fly twice the range of VL-ASROC with the same time.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NickC wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 11:02I'm confused as Japanese Navy already have ESSMs e.g. "Japan Navy's Akizuki class destroyer JS Suzutsuki fires ESSM missile " 28th June 2023, so would expect them to be installed on the Mogami class, those fitted with the Mk 41's.
A bit long history.

1: Japan has AAM-4, active radar homing (ARH) air-to-air missile. It was first adopted by JASDF, and continuously upgraded.

2: At that time, JMSDF was operating SeaSparrow and ESSM, a semi-active radar homing (SARH) SAM. Then, Japan started developing XRIM-4, AAM-4 based SAM with enlarged booster. It was almost ready, when Hyuga-class DDH and Akizuki-class DD were to be ordered.

3: From some reason (I guess JMSDF opting for "common ammo" with USN) they abandoned XRIM-4 and selected ESSM. To do that Hyuga-class DDH and Akizuki-class DD added X-band AESA for radar illumination.

4: Recently, XRIM-4 has been "revived" as Type-03 mod SAM of JGSDF. The first set has been just fielded, and it is in mass production.

5: Now, JMSDF is developing new long-rage SAM, based on Type-03 mod SAM. It is XRIM-4 derivative with J-VLASROC booster, and will have a range as long as 200-300 km. It is aiming at replacing SM-2. In other words, XRIM-4 series are in mass production now.

6: Then, here comes Mogami-class FFM. They do NOT have the AESA for SARH illumination. So they cannot operate ESSM. But, there has long been a rumor that "some day", Type-03 mod SAM for JGSDF will also be selected by JMSDF, to be carried on all their DDG and DD. As Type-03 mod is ARH SAM, it can also be carried on Mogami-class.

7: Then, FFM batch 2 comes in. The illustration states they will have "a SAM control system". We guess it means the X-band illuminator AESA. But, if Type-03 mod ARH SAM be selected, FFM batch 2 will have SAM control capability even without the X-band illuminator (just need data-link antenna).

8: What is more, Mogami-class can be added with Type-03 mod ARH, which will very significantly improve their AAW capability (now only SeaRAM).

Apart from Type-03 mod as ARH SAM, ESSM blk2 ARH version is also a candidate. So, at this moment, "anything can happen" for the FFM batch-2.

Sorry for long comment...
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

[
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 16:12
NickC wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 11:02I'm confused as Japanese Navy already have ESSMs e.g. "Japan Navy's Akizuki class destroyer JS Suzutsuki fires ESSM missile " 28th June 2023, so would expect them to be installed on the Mogami class, those fitted with the Mk 41's.
A bit long history.

1: Japan has AAM-4, active radar homing (ARH) air-to-air missile. It was first adopted by JASDF, and continuously upgraded.

2: At that time, JMSDF was operating SeaSparrow and ESSM, a semi-active radar homing (SARH) SAM. Then, Japan started developing XRIM-4, AAM-4 based SAM with enlarged booster. It was almost ready, when Hyuga-class DDH and Akizuki-class DD were to be ordered.

3: From some reason (I guess JMSDF opting for "common ammo" with USN) they abandoned XRIM-4 and selected ESSM. To do that Hyuga-class DDH and Akizuki-class DD added X-band AESA for radar illumination.

4: Recently, XRIM-4 has been "revived" as Type-03 mod SAM of JGSDF. The first set has been just fielded, and it is in mass production.

5: Now, JMSDF is developing new long-rage SAM, based on Type-03 mod SAM. It is XRIM-4 derivative with J-VLASROC booster, and will have a range as long as 200-300 km. It is aiming at replacing SM-2. In other words, XRIM-4 series are in mass production now.

6: Then, here comes Mogami-class FFM. They do NOT have the AESA for SARH illumination. So they cannot operate ESSM. But, there has long been a rumor that "some day", Type-03 mod SAM for JGSDF will also be selected by JMSDF, to be carried on all their DDG and DD. As Type-03 mod is ARH SAM, it can also be carried on Mogami-class.

7: Then, FFM batch 2 comes in. The illustration states they will have "a SAM control system". We guess it means the X-band illuminator AESA. But, if Type-03 mod ARH SAM be selected, FFM batch 2 will have SAM control capability even without the X-band illuminator (just need data-link antenna).

8: What is more, Mogami-class can be added with Type-03 mod ARH, which will very significantly improve their AAW capability (now only SeaRAM).

Apart from Type-03 mod as ARH SAM, ESSM blk2 ARH version is also a candidate. So, at this moment, "anything can happen" for the FFM batch-2.

Sorry for long comment...
Thanks for the background info, very much appreciated and your comments were definitely not too long. Now with the background knowledge will watch with interest to see what option Japanese Navy takes in the future for its AAW capability.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by new guy »

Makes a lot of sense for meteor+ replacement to have been stopped.
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023 ... d%20Monday.

At least the Japanese have the respect to have the 90% complete demonstrator fly, unlike the RAF with project mosquito.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

new guy wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 19:59 Makes a lot of sense for meteor+ replacement to have been stopped.
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023 ... d%20Monday.

At least the Japanese have the respect to have the 90% complete demonstrator fly, unlike the RAF with project mosquito.
Did read Meteor with the Japanese seeker based on the AAM-4, canned due to French opposition according to former JASDF General Hideyuki Yoshioka, any new Meteor seeker had to be French, Thales. France one of the original members of the development team for Meteor.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

Japan's 31 Aug 2023 2024 budget request disclosed the latest details of the two very large ASEV – Aegis + SPY-7 BMD destroyers for $2.6 billion, 190 meters length; 25 meters beam; 12,000 tons standard displacement; 240 crewmembers; 128 VLS cells (SM-3 Block IIA, SM-6, Tomahawk, Type 12 anti-ship missiles).

The Ministry pointed out that the size of the ASEV will be 1.7 times as large as that of the USN latest Flight III Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers. As the full load displacement of Burke Flight III is a 10,000 tons ship that would make ASEV 17,000 tons, so how you get from 12,000 tons standard displacement (also known as the Washington displacement which dates back to the 1922 treaty which excludes fuel), to 17,000 tons FLD seems nonsense, perhaps Donald-san can explain the Japanese Navy definition of standard displacement.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... dget-ever/
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by new guy »

so equal to £1bn per ship, or 1 T26.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

new guy wrote: 01 Sep 2023, 11:59 so equal to £1bn per ship, or 1 T26.
Also the first ASEV destroyer planned to be commissioned in 2027 a year before the commissioning of the first T26, HMS Glasgow in 2028, construction of the first ASEV will begin in 2024, HMS Glasgow's first steel was cut back in July 2017.

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NickC wrote: 02 Sep 2023, 12:22 Also the first ASEV destroyer planned to be commissioned in 2027 a year before the commissioning of the first T26, HMS Glasgow in 2028, construction of the first ASEV will begin in 2024, HMS Glasgow's first steel was cut back in July 2017.
Not sure. Japanese "commission" is similar to RN "commission" or even "handed over to RN", both do NOT mean "accepted into service". I understand T26-hull1 will be handed-over to RN on late 2025 or 2026. Since then, she will be flying white ensign, although not yet "accepted into service" (because she needs first-of-class ship trial, in addition to her own training/work-up period).

Japanese build speed is faster than RN. But not twice faster.
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by NickC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 03 Sep 2023, 05:47
Japanese build speed is faster than RN. But not twice faster.
T26 steel cut July 2017 and if we take date the White Ensign planned to be raised as Jan. '26 that’s eight and half years and thats not its commissioning date which a year later with IOC Oct. '28, whereas the ASEV destroyer is twice the size and expect a more complex ship with planned build commencing in '24 and commissioning in '27, four years, would suggest the Japanese Shipbuilders/Navy build speed is over twice as fast as the build rate for the BAES/RN T26.

T26 dates re Navy Lookout

https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-de ... -frigates/

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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by Repulse »

NickC wrote: 03 Sep 2023, 12:37
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 03 Sep 2023, 05:47
Japanese build speed is faster than RN. But not twice faster.
T26 steel cut July 2017 and if we take date the White Ensign planned to be raised as Jan. '26 that’s eight and half years and thats not its commissioning date which a year later with IOC Oct. '28, whereas the ASEV destroyer is twice the size and expect a more complex ship with planned build commencing in '24 and commissioning in '27, four years, would suggest the Japanese Shipbuilders/Navy build speed is over twice as fast as the build rate for the BAES/RN T26.

T26 dates re Navy Lookout

https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-de ... -frigates/
That or the MOD purposely slows down T26 production to match its allocated budget
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Re: JAPAN / 日本

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

NickC wrote: 03 Sep 2023, 12:37
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 03 Sep 2023, 05:47
Japanese build speed is faster than RN. But not twice faster.
T26 steel cut July 2017 and if we take date the White Ensign planned to be raised as Jan. '26 that’s eight and half years and thats not its commissioning date which a year later with IOC Oct. '28, whereas the ASEV destroyer is twice the size and expect a more complex ship with planned build commencing in '24 and commissioning in '27, four years, would suggest the Japanese Shipbuilders/Navy build speed is over twice as fast as the build rate for the BAES/RN T26.

T26 dates re Navy Lookout

https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-de ... -frigates/
No objection on T26 schedule. But, Japanese "commission" is more "handed over to RN", not "in service". So, T26-hull1 shall be compared to be July 2017--Jan 2026, 8.5 years. For example, Kongo class 1st hull "laid down" 8 May 1990, and "commissioned" in 25 March 1993. It is 3 years, but it is far from "in service" then.

But, wait, it was 3.1 years. But, "laid down" is later than 1st steel cut. So, may be 3.5 years or so.

So, yes, Japan is twice faster than UK. Corrected.

Just think how Japan is investing on shipbuilding. Big difference.

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