River Class (OPV) (RN)

[serge750]

Putting aside the OPV plus one or two Ice Patrol ships, of the RN means business the best way to achieve sea control of the region is to deploy a SSN. Fine to sail the CSG there occasionally, but a SSN will stop any thoughts of an invasion - which is why an increase to the SSN force should be prioritised ahead of additional frigates. Even one popping up randomly on occasion is enough to put doubt in potential foe minds.

[Tempest414]

Putting aside the OPV plus one or two Ice Patrol ships, of the RN means business the best way to achieve sea control of the region is to deploy a SSN. Fine to sail the CSG there occasionally, but a SSN will stop any thoughts of an invasion - which is why an increase to the SSN force should be prioritised ahead of additional frigates. Even one popping up randomly on occasion is enough to put doubt in potential foe minds.

Now we are going back to the difference between sea control and maritime security yes a SSN will control an area what I am talking about is the latter were having 4 groups with frigates backing up OPV's sends a clear message that we intend to protect the rules of the sea in all parts of the globe then as you say we can send a tire 1 asset form time to time to re-enforce it

What these 4 group say is the RN is ever present and ever watching ever ready to work with allies to better each other. It would also mean we may not need a FRE as there will be 4 Escort on duty ready to respond in the 4 main regions of interest

Remember there is a lot of day to day work to be done

[Scimitar54]

Exactly! 4 x Fleet Ready Escorts are better than 1. At least four FRE should be the minimum that the RN should have available.

[Tempest414]

Exactly! 4 x Fleet Ready Escorts are better than 1. At least four FRE should be the minimum that the RN should have available.

They would not be FRE's as to say they would be duty escorts with each region having two T-31's working 3 months on 3 off they would be able to join different task groups and conduct training with other navies but break off if needed somewhere in there region

[abc123]

…that allmost guarantees US on British side…

I wouldn’t count on that.

Why not? It's in their own best interest.

[Poiuytrewq]

…that allmost guarantees US on British side…

I wouldn’t count on that.

Why not? It's in their own best interest.

South American politics is extremely complicated.

[new guy]

This may be useful for this debate.

[wargame_insomniac]

This may be useful for this debate.

Replied in Falklands Islands thread

[Ian Hall]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/first-r ... e-decades/

[Ian Hall]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-n ... -security/

[Ian Hall]

This old article indicates, conceptually at least, that one could produce a stretched, more heavily armed version of a River OPV. The key of course is not whether one might like one (or several) as a P follow-on, but how to balance investment across the fleet (noting the envisaged T45/83, 26, 31, 32 DD/FF mix) and priotise £.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/avenger ... 1-frigate/

[new guy]

This old article indicates, conceptually at least, that one could produce a stretched, more heavily armed version of a River OPV. The key of course is not whether one might like one (or several) as a P follow-on, but how to balance investment across the fleet (noting the envisaged T45/83, 26, 31, 32 DD/FF mix) and priotise £.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/avenger ... 1-frigate/

But why.

[Repulse]

Adding a hangar and a gun to an OPV is hardly controversial - just seems to be in the UK. It would be cheaper to build, maintain and support and do the majority of roles envisaged under the original RFP for a light frigate (remember CAMM was optional).

[new guy]

Adding a hangar and a gun to an OPV is hardly controversial - just seems to be in the UK. It would be cheaper to build, maintain and support and do the majority of roles envisaged under the original RFP for a light frigate (remember CAMM was optional).

Yes but not with what BAE proposed, it was a photoshoped image not really a proper design.

[wargame_insomniac]

Yes but not with what BAE proposed, it was a photoshoped image not really a proper design.

Yes it’s is an image, wouldn’t say the design is without foundation as it’s basically a stretched B2 River.

I must admit I was in the minority that liked it, though I still haven’t changed my mind that a combination of these and more T26s would have made more sense for the RNs priorities/ budget.

[wargame_insomniac]

Yes but not with what BAE proposed, it was a photoshoped image not really a proper design.

Yes it’s is an image, wouldn’t say the design is without foundation as it’s basically a stretched B2 River.

I must admit I was in the minority that liked it, though I still haven’t changed my mind that a combination of these and more T26s would have made more sense for the RNs priorities/ budget.

I would have liked to have seen more detail on the Avenger proposed design. I do think something in the 110m-120m length would have been interesting to see fully specced out and costed. Long enough for helicopter operations but keeping overall cost and crew requirements to a minimum.

Then could have done a more reasoned comparison between the BAE Avenger, the BMT Venator and Babcock's Arrowhead 120 designs. It would have still made most sense for Babcock to build the winning design.

And crucially a 110m -120m Light Frigate would have appealed to far more Nations based on lower cost and lower crew requirements, so I think would have stood far more chance of securing Export sales of UK built ships.

The greater the sales of UK built ships, the more this would have driven overall per unit cost price down. Babcock securing five more Polish built ships sold is great for Babcock's profits but I can't see the RN getting their five Fixed Price contract ships any cheaper.

(I guess it might help Babcock not looking for any additional negotations for extra funds to cover higher component costs dur to double whammy of Covid pandemic and Russian invasion of Ukraine).

I am presuming that a design like the Avenger or Venator would have been simpler and thus quicker to build than Arrowhead 140, which would have helped getting the first ships into RN service ASAP, which might have reduced some of the strain on current ageing T23s.

[serge750]

If all the T31 gets mk41 & NSM, making then a tier 2 frigate ? then 2-3 of these ( with a 57mm main gun, maybe drones instead of a wildcat ) could be a good oprtion for lower end patrols eg Falklands,Carribbean, Gibraltar/med for a cheap flag waving - maybe use the river b1 replacement budget, then use the river b2 as replacements for b1, with the T31 doing the more global tasks, along with any T26/45 available outside of their tier1 tasks,

[wargame_insomniac]

If all the T31 gets mk41 & NSM, making then a tier 2 frigate ? then 2-3 of these ( with a 57mm main gun, maybe drones instead of a wildcat ) could be a good oprtion for lower end patrols eg Falklands,Carribbean, Gibraltar/med for a cheap flag waving - maybe use the river b1 replacement budget, then use the river b2 as replacements for b1, with the T31 doing the more global tasks, along with any T26/45 available outside of their tier1 tasks,

I disagree. The River B2's have proved they are more accurately Ocean Patrol Vessels, with the endurance and range to cover wide areas. They are overkill in patrolling UK home waters and are better off left doing similar tasks to they are currently doing.

For patrolling UK home waters we need something comparable to the River B1's that they would be replacing. Something around 80m length to have good sea keeping in rough seas. Single main gun of no more than 20mm - 30mm with a pair of HMG for backup. Main use would be getting RIB's to where needed, so Palfinger stern launch system would be worth it. Cheap sensors and other equipment.

I think the RB2's and T31s with minimal uppgrades would do a good job covering Caribbean, Med, South Atlantic and Indo-Pacific, leaving the Tier one warfighting escorts to cover CASD, CSG and ASW in North Atlantic and North / Barents Seas.

Of the two (RB2's and T31's), the former would most suit patrolling BIOT's and other low-risk areas whilst the latter would cover the medium-risk areas such as Persisn Gulf, but be there if need to send to send additional back up.

[bobp]

HMS Severn departs Portsmouth...

[new guy]

Doubt that they would be quicker to build

Plus they were slain by BAE, not the MOD

[Tempest414]

For me any new OPV needs to operate a UAV like Camcopter with I Master radar to allow the ship to conduct better pattern of life missions

As I have said many times now the RB2's can be given a big step up for about 6 million a pop witch could see them fitted with the SAAB 1X radar , 2 x Camcopters in a Container , and 40mm main gun ( and for more money a 57mm )

Given this the only thing that the Avenger concept would bring would be a helicopter hangar unless we whet mad and added the like of Artisan and more corvette type weapons which would drag it closer to type 31 in cost

[new guy]

For me any new OPV needs to operate a UAV like Camcopter with I Master radar to allow the ship to conduct better pattern of life missions

As I have said many times now the RB2's can be given a big step up for about 6 million a pop witch could see them fitted with the SAAB 1X radar , 2 x Camcopters in a Container , and 40mm main gun ( and for more money a 57mm )

Given this the only thing that the Avenger concept would bring would be a helicopter hangar unless we whet mad and added the like of Artisan and more corvette type weapons which would drag it closer to type 31 in cost

As long as it is more just modernisation + hull lengthening for + endurance and + work deck, I support it. Don't believe it needs a 57mm, or even a 40mm. Just 1 stern and one bow gun, plus HMG.

I believe that the cost must be kept minimal, otherwise as you say it could become a corvette, which at that point we could just get a T31 for a little bit more, if not the same price.

I believe that there must be a multi role deck, consisting of SH defence CUBES (Like PODS) management system.

Avenger concept, takeaway 5-inch gun and replace with 2 40mm or less, + modernisation, + make hanger full width, + turn that amidship area into a multi-role work deck, then I believe you have a solid MHPC contender.

[Ian Hall]

For me any new OPV needs to operate a UAV like Camcopter with I Master radar to allow the ship to conduct better pattern of life missions

As I have said many times now the RB2's can be given a big step up for about 6 million a pop witch could see them fitted with the SAAB 1X radar , 2 x Camcopters in a Container , and 40mm main gun ( and for more money a 57mm )

Given this the only thing that the Avenger concept would bring would be a helicopter hangar unless we whet mad and added the like of Artisan and more corvette type weapons which would drag it closer to type 31 in cost

Out of interest where did you get your costing from?

[Tempest414]

For me any new OPV needs to operate a UAV like Camcopter with I Master radar to allow the ship to conduct better pattern of life missions

As I have said many times now the RB2's can be given a big step up for about 6 million a pop witch could see them fitted with the SAAB 1X radar , 2 x Camcopters in a Container , and 40mm main gun ( and for more money a 57mm )

Given this the only thing that the Avenger concept would bring would be a helicopter hangar unless we whet mad and added the like of Artisan and more corvette type weapons which would drag it closer to type 31 in cost

Out of interest where did you get your costing from?

Based around contracts and bit of guess work

SAAB x1 radar we just penned a contact for 11 units plus support for 25 million dollars so call it 2 million pounds per unit plus a 1 million to fit it

Camcopter was set at 500,000 for 2 UAV's plus the control unit I costed it in at 1 million per system

And I could not find a cost for the 40mm Mk-4 so I put it at 2 million per unit with support

all so these systems are about to join the RN/MOD at some level very soon

[Ian Hall]

Cue comments of 'we need one of those, but with a 4.5" gun and a flight deck for Wildcat, and CAMM etc etc'