Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Repulse]

@SW1, I saw you replied to my post but it’s gone?

It is couldn’t be bothered going round this you on this any longer. If you think this extremely limited vessel 3 of which the French built and transferred the one already built for €398m to Argentina could be built in the uk for £100m for the RN and that the Royal Navy would even entertain commissioning it for the missions it needs to undertake in fwd deployed or around the uk in its current state go ahead.

You really are blinkered aren’t you. Your prejudice is clear, conflating bits of information as facts and refusing to give real answers to debate when you are called out is just cover for you not being able to accept you are wrong. It’s ok to have a view, but “a OPV cannot be built for a £100mn for the critical roles required for the RN” is just nonsense.

If you want to reply, start by saying how the platform I’ve suggested is inferior and cannot be resolved by minor updates like happened for the B2 - no more woolly it’s shit because I say so.

[new guy]

@SW1, I saw you replied to my post but it’s gone?

It is couldn’t be bothered going round this you on this any longer. If you think this extremely limited vessel 3 of which the French built and transferred the one already built for €398m to Argentina could be built in the uk for £100m for the RN and that the Royal Navy would even entertain commissioning it for the missions it needs to undertake in fwd deployed or around the uk in its current state go ahead.

french navy only build / had one.

[SW1]

@SW1, I saw you replied to my post but it’s gone?

It is couldn’t be bothered going round this you on this any longer. If you think this extremely limited vessel 3 of which the French built and transferred the one already built for €398m to Argentina could be built in the uk for £100m for the RN and that the Royal Navy would even entertain commissioning it for the missions it needs to undertake in fwd deployed or around the uk in its current state go ahead.

french navy only build / had one.

DCN built one then leased it to the French navy. The Argentine navy then ordered 3 plus had the one leased to the French navy transferred to them they were all built in France.

[Tempest414]

This is just not true at any level unless you accept every war ship is a target

It is now common knowledge that T-31 will be fitted with 2170 SSTD system to defend against torpedo attack and if T-31 gets 32 Mk-41 then in the surface and AAW fight T-26 has little or no advantage over T-31

If Type 31 goes to sea with its sensor fit 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 Mk-41 and S2170 it is going to be a great C2 ship and a real handful for any ship out there

Yes every ship is a target, but if a ship has been designed from the ground up to fight, it’s not just a target.

Spending more money on what supposed to be a cheap ship and adding additional kit to the T31 does help close the gap, but it’s fundamentally a tier 2 ship that does not have the qualitative advantage that the RN would need and chose of a tier 1 ship in its fleet. If it was affordable, I would have no problem with a tier 2, but the RN doesn’t and every pound spent on a tier 2 is a pound not spent on more capable ships. I know it’s just my opinion and we must make good a bad decision, but I’ve seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

How is T-31 just a target and type 26 more than just a target ?

Plus how much qualitive edge do think type 26 has over Chinese and Russian C1 ships? built in larger numbers

[Tempest414]

So the UK Baltic deployment starting soon will have 2 x frigates , 2 x OPV's , 2 x MCM and a Bay class

this will mean just one or no OPV's in UK waters

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... ltic-area/

[Poiuytrewq]

If Type 31 goes to sea with its sensor fit 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 Mk-41 and S2170 it is going to be a great C2 ship and a real handful for any ship out there

Don't forget the 2x Wildcats and potential NSM.

The T31 is now a ASuW predator if utilised to the full potential. Two or three operating together would be a potent force and strategically significant if supported by SSN(s) and P8’s.

[SW1]

So the UK Baltic deployment starting soon will have 2 x frigates , 2 x OPV's , 2 x MCM and a Bay class

this will mean just one or no OPV's in UK waters

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... ltic-area/

“The contingent will depart in early December to join other ships and aircraft from JEF participant nations to launch joint patrols, with vessels spaced to cover a wide area from the English Channel to the Baltic Sea”


There just counting the opvs in the channel into the total.

[Poiuytrewq]

So the UK Baltic deployment starting soon will have 2 x frigates , 2 x OPV's , 2 x MCM and a Bay class

Interesting.

With an eye on the future how would this translate to T31, T26, RB2, RB1 replacements and MRSS?

Are the Frigates even necessary in the Baltic?

More here:
https://www.navylookout.com/analysis-ro ... e-patrols/

[Tempest414]

If Type 31 goes to sea with its sensor fit 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 Mk-41 and S2170 it is going to be a great C2 ship and a real handful for any ship out there

Don't forget the 2x Wildcats and potential NSM.

The T31 is now a ASuW predator if utilised to the full potential. Two or three operating together would be a potent force and strategically significant if supported by SSN(s) and P8’s.

I have said this for some time that if T-31 gets its 32 MK-41's and they were loaded out with 32 CAMM and 24 TLAM plus there Wildcats and maybe NSM they become tigers with 3 coming together they could launch a land attack up to 1500km's away with 72 TLAM's plus defend the space around them with 3 Wildcats , 24 NSM and 96 CAMM not bad for a half price C2 capability

[Poiuytrewq]

If proven true, this will move the dial.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... sea-drone/.

A UK-owned ship passing through the Red Sea has reportedly been hit by rocket fire, a UK-based maritime security group said Sunday, with another agency reporting possible drone activity in the area.

The unnamed Bahamas-flagged vessel was “struck by a rocket” while sailing south around 35 nautical miles off Yemen’s western coast, maritime security firm Ambrey said, citing reports.

“The affected vessel was issuing distress calls relating to piracy/missile attack,” the UK-based company added.

It noted reports that “an international naval asset in the vicinity of the incident” was likely proceeding to the ship’s location.

The United Kingdom Maritime Trade Operations (UKMTO) agency, run by Britain’s Royal Navy, said it had received “a report of Uncrewed Aerial Systems (UAS) activity including a potential explosion... originating from the direction of Yemen”.

It advised vessels in the area to “exercise caution”.

[dmereifield]

Sadly, I fear with the current Government (and any future Labour Gpvernment), even this won't move the dial beyond some token words. No long term increases im defence spending or better management of defence spending

[Poiuytrewq]

Sadly, I fear with the current Government (and any future Labour Gpvernment), even this won't move the dial beyond some token words. No long term increases im defence spending or better management of defence spending

The overstretched nature of the escort fleet will soon become abundantly clear to even the most casual of observers.

The real crunch in escort numbers is still 4-6 years away.

If RN cannot ensure the safety of the UK’s commercial fleet now it will undoubtedly get worse before it gets better.

IMO it’s not a case of more funding. What is required is a thorough reassessment of priorities and a realignment of current planning, in a hurry.

How is it a priority to send two Frigates to the Baltic when this is happening?

[tomuk]

With the anticipated upgrades (more CAMM, NSM and MK41), aren't the T31's becoming part of the fighting fleet?

Yes they are, but two things -

- the fighting fleet should not be permanently forward based to the four winds, they should be UK based ready to surge to troubled regions as a fighting force that can make a difference and win a fight if it comes to it.
- the T31 was never assessed as a war fighting frigate for the RN, the RN wanted more T26s, but got told the funds aren’t there. It’s good that money seems to be available to add more things, but fundamentally the platform is limited in key areas. I’m all for making the best of things, but that should be optimising and using the T31 for local EEZ / NATO duties so the more capable T26s and T45s can be used to their full potential.

Would it not make sense to forward base some of this 'surge fleet' nearer or in said trouble spots? They can react much quicker and not waste 'deployed days' transiting from UK, and and them being there would act as deterrent in itself.

On T31 to use it for EEZ duties, presumably due to you incorrect estimation of it warfighting capability, is complete overkill. And as to NATO taskings that would be a great use for T31 and also adding to the various CTF 15x out in the Middle East\Indian Ocean too.

[tomuk]

Sadly, I fear with the current Government (and any future Labour Gpvernment), even this won't move the dial beyond some token words. No long term increases im defence spending or better management of defence spending

The overstretched nature of the escort fleet will soon become abundantly clear to even the most casual of observers.

The real crunch in escort numbers is still 4-6 years away.

If RN cannot ensure the safety of the UK’s commercial fleet now it will undoubtedly get worse before it gets better.

IMO it’s not a case of more funding. What is required is a thorough reassessment of priorities and a realignment of current planning, in a hurry.

How is it a priority to send two Frigates to the Baltic when this is happening?

Isn't Diamond already on her way? In the Baltic there is the danger of a far greater economic damage via pipelines and undersea cables than a few rockets shot at the odd freighter\tanker.

[SW1]

Chronology of todays events.

As the years role one we are going to find out why the escort its connections with maritime security and freedom of movement/information is the priority issue at sea.

[Poiuytrewq]

Isn't Diamond already on her way? In the Baltic there is the danger of a far greater economic damage via pipelines and undersea cables than a few rockets shot at the odd freighter\tanker.

How many escorts do the countries that surround the Baltic actually have?

• What exactly are two RN Frigates going to achieve that the other NATO countries in the region cannot?
• Why are Frigates even required?
• What is the threat assessment that warrants 30% of RN’s active escorts?

Meanwhile British owned vessels are being attacked in the Red Sea and a single Destroyer is sent to the Gulf presumably to reinforce Kipion. How will that stop attacks in the Red Sea?

Based on the current ‘all eggs in one basket’ strategy the answer is to dispatch a CSG. Clearly that would be an overreaction but what assets are available beyond the fixed commitments and the CSG?

The FRE should be dispatched immediately but that tasking has been regularly moved across to the OPV’s which would be useless in this scenario.

LRG(S) is still WOS so cannot respond and in any case has no escorts attached to participate.

The entire fleet balance has been trashed to provide a CSG and now the limitations are clear.

These attacks can’t be ignored because if RN isn’t there to protect British vessels then what is RN for?

As widely expected, at the first sign of trouble the peace time planning assumptions are proved woefully inadequate.

Current planning must adapt to the new reality.

[SW1]

Isn't Diamond already on her way? In the Baltic there is the danger of a far greater economic damage via pipelines and undersea cables than a few rockets shot at the odd freighter\tanker.

How many escorts do the countries that surround the Baltic actually have?

• What exactly are two RN Frigates going to achieve that the other NATO countries in the region cannot?
• Why are Frigates even required?
• What is the threat assessment that warrants 30% of RN’s active escorts?

Meanwhile British owned vessels are being attacked in the Red Sea and a single Destroyer is sent to the Gulf presumably to reinforce Kipion. How will that stop attacks in the Red Sea?

Based on the current ‘all eggs in one basket’ strategy the answer is to dispatch a CSG. Clearly that would be an overreaction but what assets are available beyond the fixed commitments and the CSG?

The FRE should be dispatched immediately but that tasking has been regularly moved across to the OPV’s which would be useless in this scenario.

LRG(S) is still WOS so cannot respond and in any case has no escorts attached to participate.

The entire fleet balance has been trashed to provide a CSG and now the limitations are clear.

These attacks can’t be ignored because if RN isn’t there to protect British vessels then what is RN for?

As widely expected, at the first sign of trouble the peace time planning assumptions are proved woefully inadequate.

Current planning must adapt to the new reality.

HMS Lancaster is there too, so that is two escorts either in or near the region. There is a significant number of international escorts in various groups in this region too.

The reason we need escorts assets in the Baltic North Sea/Atlantic is that is where the vast majority of our energy and economic sea trade comes from. There has been interference by merchant and possible submarine assets of Russia and China in this area anlong with Russian surface vessels and it’s how you counter it with presence that can deter and shadow.

We are the framework nation for Baltic states and it’s our contribution to there and our security.

I agree totally on your balance statements and the materially poor state we have deliberately allowed the escort fleet to get into. It’s on every sea lord from the early 2000s and 10s.

[Poiuytrewq]

HMS Lancaster is there too, so that is two escorts either in or near the region. There is a significant number of international escorts in various groups in this region too.

Is that enough or is that just what is available. It’s defence down to a budget again.

This constant relying on allies is becoming a habit.

The reason we need escorts assets in the Baltic North Sea/Atlantic is that is where the vast majority of our energy and economic sea trade comes from. There has been interference by merchant and possible submarine assets of Russia and China in this area anlong with Russian surface vessels and it’s how you counter it with presence that can deter and shadow.

No argument but would the Frigates be better where the kinetic exchanges are taking place?

Again, what are the frigates doing in the Baltic? Shadowing doesn’t require a Frigate.

The devils in the detail.

We are the framework nation for Baltic states and it’s our contribution to there and our security.

Exactly but is protecting undersea infrastructure really a tasking for the UK’s minimal escorts?

I agree totally on your balance statements and the materially poor state we have deliberately allowed the escort fleet to get into. It’s on every sea lord from the early 2000s and 10s.

Thats history, the future is more interesting.

[new guy]

Shit is going down in the gulf




USS Carney is still being attacked too.

It seems more and more likely that not only will HMS Diamond shoot in anger,
but she may even be forced to mag dump.
We are looking at up to £100m in ammo should there be the need for it to be utilised.

The Base in Oman is looking of increasing importance, even though it is still 1,200nm / 4 days running sail.


Ukraine, gulf, Israel Palestine, South China Sea, Guyana, multiple regions firing up right now.
We are not giving it the effort it deserves.

[tomuk]

Again, what are the frigates doing in the Baltic? Shadowing doesn’t require a Frigate.

Do OPVs or other axillaries have any anti submarine capability?

The Baltic issues are attacks on underwater pipelines and cables. -> ASW

In the Red Sea it is missile\rocket attacks from UAVs -> AAW

[Poiuytrewq]

Do OPVs or other axillaries have any anti submarine capability?

They can if you give them a capability to use.

With a large fixed hanger the Bay could operate up to six Merlin from a twin spot flight deck plus USVs, UUVs and XLUUVs operating from the well dock.

The RB2s could use a containerised Captas2 TAS. Perfect for the realitivly shallow waters around much of the critical undersea infrastructure in the North Sea, English Channel and the Baltic.

This is going to be an ongoing issue. Does the U.K. have the tools to properly protect the undersea infrastructure or is it just a case of being seen to do something with what is available?

The Baltic issues are attacks on underwater pipelines and cables. -> ASW

The last pipeline was damaged by a dragging anchor. Nothing to do with submarines.

Checking for physical interference of undersea cables is a task for MCM and MROSS probably not the best use of RN’s tiny number of active ASW Frigates.

If HMG is serious about protecting the critical underwater infrastructure further investment needs to be made in P8 and Protector numbers, adding the second MROSS asap, procuring containerised TAS for the OPVs and giving LRG(N) a converted Bay to operate 4-6 Merlin plus USV, UUV and XLUUV.

Of course the other option is just to gather together whatever ships are available for a few weeks to enable the issuance of a suitable press release for the tabloids about “A Royal Navy Task Force”.

In the Red Sea it is missile\rocket attacks from UAVs -> AAW

In which case a T45 is required in both the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf for the foreseeable. How exactly is RN going to manage that?

LRG(S) should now be operating out of Duqm as planned.

It should be comprised of a Frigate, 2x OPVs, 1x Bay, 1x Wave and Argus PLUS Kipion.

The requirement in the Mediterranean should have been met by a ARG despatched from the UK, permanently available to reinforce either LRG if required thereby allowing LRG(S) to operate EOS as planned.

Lots of lessons need to be learned but the main one is that RN is too small and getting progressively smaller and thereby losing the ability to react meaningfully and sustainably over an extended period. Surely this is obvious.

RN has gone all in on the CSG strategy. Given the other commitments now underway could a CSG actually be formed with 2x T45, 2x T23ASW and a SSN?

I think it would take a maximum effort.

[SW1]

HMS Lancaster is there too, so that is two escorts either in or near the region. There is a significant number of international escorts in various groups in this region too.

Is that enough or is that just what is available. It’s defence down to a budget again.

This constant relying on allies is becoming a habit.

The reason we need escorts assets in the Baltic North Sea/Atlantic is that is where the vast majority of our energy and economic sea trade comes from. There has been interference by merchant and possible submarine assets of Russia and China in this area anlong with Russian surface vessels and it’s how you counter it with presence that can deter and shadow.

No argument but would the Frigates be better where the kinetic exchanges are taking place?

Again, what are the frigates doing in the Baltic? Shadowing doesn’t require a Frigate.

The devils in the detail.

We are the framework nation for Baltic states and it’s our contribution to there and our security.

Exactly but is protecting undersea infrastructure really a tasking for the UK’s minimal escorts?

I agree totally on your balance statements and the materially poor state we have deliberately allowed the escort fleet to get into. It’s on every sea lord from the early 2000s and 10s.

Thats history, the future is more interesting.

The Americans seem to have had 1 ship covering most of what’s going on so we would have two.

As the Americans point out these ships are connected to 19 different nations and there are 3 different multinational task groups in the region
We are providing an appropriate level for assistance.

You provide the escorts to stop things becoming a shooting war too. We are going to be conducting and leading patrols near to Russian territory we don’t send hawks to Estonia for nato air policing.

Yes it is. Damage to undersea infrastructure has major political consequences and to those living in the UK.

[Poiuytrewq]

We are providing an appropriate level for assistance.

Not convinced but what else can RN put together right now?

The cupboard is bare.

You provide the escorts to stop things becoming a shooting war too. We are going to be conducting and leading patrols near to Russian territory we don’t send hawks to Estonia for nato air policing.

If that’s the case why has LRG(N) not got escorts permanently assigned?

Yes it is. Damage to undersea infrastructure has major political consequences and to those living in the UK.

All the more reason to properly invest in a coherent deterrent. Ben Wallace was adamant that the MROSS were needed asap. We are rapidly approaching 3 years from the original MROSS announcement and still no MROSS. As for the second, absolutely no idea if it’s progressing or even if the RFA could crew it.

For such a high priority the pace of progress has been glacial.

[SW1]

We are providing an appropriate level for assistance.

Not convinced but what else can RN put together right now?

The cupboard is bare.

You provide the escorts to stop things becoming a shooting war too. We are going to be conducting and leading patrols near to Russian territory we don’t send hawks to Estonia for nato air policing.

If that’s the case why has LRG(N) not got escorts permanently assigned?

Yes it is. Damage to undersea infrastructure has major political consequences and to those living in the UK.

All the more reason to properly invest in a coherent deterrent. Ben Wallace was adamant that the MROSS were needed asap. We are rapidly approaching 3 years from the original MROSS announcement and still no MROSS. As for the second, absolutely no idea if it’s progressing or even if the RFA could crew it.

For such a high priority the pace of progress has been glacial.

The material state of the escort fleet is not good. That has been the case for over 10 years now, glacial inaction has been the default position and we’ve bluffed it out with opvs.

I would suggest that LRG(N) like its southern counterpart is a case of smoke and mirrors.


The MOD probably consider it a light speed procurement. They bought proteus for £70m ive read she will need to dry dock in January for her 5 year inspection and complete FOST see you in spring probably. The dull and boring but constant in demand, vital to National continuation has been left to rot for several decades now chasing unicorns.

[Tempest414]

Shit is going down in the gulf




USS Carney is still being attacked too.

It seems more and more likely that not only will HMS Diamond shoot in anger,
but she may even be forced to mag dump.
We are looking at up to £100m in ammo should there be the need for it to be utilised.

The Base in Oman is looking of increasing importance, even though it is still 1,200nm / 4 days running sail.


Ukraine, gulf, Israel Palestine, South China Sea, Guyana, multiple regions firing up right now.
We are not giving it the effort it deserves.

This is why I have been saying for some time now that we need 3 Patrol groups
1) Indian Ocean = 3 x T-31 and 4 x OPV's
2 ) South Atlantic = 2 x T-31 , 2 x OPV's & the Ice Patrol ship
3 ) North Atlantic = 3 x T-31 , 4 x OPV's