F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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mrclark303
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 29 Nov 2023, 08:57
new guy wrote: 29 Nov 2023, 01:00 I think it's time to start looking at the delivery times of F-35 vs tempest.

Tempest with deliveries starting 2035,
how quickly will our F-35B Batch 2 order arrive?
Is the +27 jets worth it?
Used as delay overlap?
Batch 3?
Larger Batch 2?

All important questions. I don't put this against tempest, just talking about the transition to tempest
When will typhoon production stop?
How quicly they arrive depends on when we order them. But I believe that the intention is to have them all delivered by 2032/33.

Are 27 jets worth it? Yes. We need them to have a credible fleet to provide enough aircraft for the active carrier + training, ad by extension an all out effort to equip both carriers. Personally I've always wanted to see an fleet of around 90 combat capable aircraft, but 74 is better than 48.
My 2040 RAF/ FAA force would look like this in an ideal world.

90 F35B allows formation and support of 4 front line Squadrons.

I would order 150 Tempest to equip 8 front line Squadrons.

We then return to the absolute minimum 12 fighter Squadrons we should never have dropped from.

The real force multiplier will then be the Carrier capable loyal wingman that can really put the mass back in accross both fleets, but also have wider capability including working with Posiden and perhaps even AH64E, providing scouting, targeting and additional firepower.

I would say order 100 capable loyal wingman.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sol »

809 NAS will be officially recreated on the Friday, 8th December

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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sol wrote: 05 Dec 2023, 12:49 809 NAS will be officially recreated on the Friday, 8th December

The first time 809 will have been active since it's brief post Falklands Campaign career....

I would have thought 872 Squadron would have been a better number plate 'fit', the last RN Phantom Squadron, disbanded in 1978.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sol »

mrclark303 wrote: 05 Dec 2023, 18:43 I would have thought 872 Squadron would have been a better number plate 'fit', the last RN Phantom Squadron, disbanded in 1978.
I guess you meant 892 NAS which was not just the last FAA squadron operating Phantons but also the only FAA frontline squadron equipped with it.

809 NAS was the last squadron to operate Buccaneer. Wonder why 800 or 801 NAS are not chosen but I don't mind they choose 809 as first I hope it won't be the only) F-35 FAA squadron instead.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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“892” would be the next FAA squadron for me, at least. However I would be happy just to see 2 plus (FAA) front line Lightning squadrons before many more years go by.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Perhaps 809 was chosen because its main purpose was attacking the enemy.....buccaners etc the F35 primary mission although can do a lot more than that ?????

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

sol wrote: 05 Dec 2023, 19:18
mrclark303 wrote: 05 Dec 2023, 18:43 I would have thought 872 Squadron would have been a better number plate 'fit', the last RN Phantom Squadron, disbanded in 1978.
I guess you meant 892 NAS which was not just the last FAA squadron operating Phantons but also the only FAA frontline squadron equipped with it.

809 NAS was the last squadron to operate Buccaneer. Wonder why 800 or 801 NAS are not chosen but I don't mind they choose 809 as first I hope it won't be the only) F-35 FAA squadron instead.
My mistake, you're quite right, 892....

My personal preference would be for both to be FAA and proudly wearing 800 and 801 colours.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sol »

892 NAS would be fitting as they already have lightning in the crest and nice motto.

Image

I would still prefer for the next one, if there to be one, 800 or 801 NAS. But I think that I read somewhere that the third F-35 will be RAF and I doubt there will be fourth one. So my guess would be only 1 FAA F-35 squadron. I would like to be proven wrong tho.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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sol wrote: 06 Dec 2023, 08:24 892 NAS would be fitting as they already have lightning in the crest and nice motto.

Image

I would still prefer for the next one, if there to be one, 800 or 801 NAS. But I think that I read somewhere that the third F-35 will be RAF and I doubt there will be fourth one. So my guess would be only 1 FAA F-35 squadron. I would like to be proven wrong tho.
Strictly speaking 17 (TES) and 207 Sqn (OCU) are both RAF so another FAA Sqn wouldn't be too controversial.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Someone has found a colour paint brush at last

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Little J »

This is just stupid, firstly there's no money, secondly there's a desperate requirement to fill up carriers in a time of war and thirdly it would fook up Tempest... Why does this idea keep getting rolled out every year???


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Little J wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 12:01 This is just stupid, firstly there's no money, secondly there's a desperate requirement to fill up carriers in a time of war and thirdly it would fook up Tempest... Why does this idea keep getting rolled out every year???


Because Lockheed Martin aren’t involved n tempest.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

"Quick we don't have enough F-35's, I know lets buy more of F-35's!" It doesn't really make sense, don't they come off the same production line? :wtf:

If they RAF wants more aircraft it always comes back to the Tranche 1 Typhoons and getting the support structure set up for them.

Nicholas Drummond just seems determined to undermine British defence sometimes.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 12:37 Because Lockheed Martin aren’t involved n tempest.
Here's an idea for Lockheed, get your software sorted out and integrate our weapons in a timely manner and you might have a leg to stand on.

11 years for meteor is still unacceptable (and that doesn't include the added time to retrofit and update our F-35s)
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Jdam wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 12:43
SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 12:37 Because Lockheed Martin aren’t involved n tempest.
Here's an idea for Lockheed, get your software sorted out and integrate our weapons in a timely manner and you might have a leg to stand on.

11 years for meteor is still unacceptable (and that doesn't include the added time to retrofit and update our F-35s)
Indeed but the narrative is buy American it’s “cheaper” I can then spend money on my favourite project.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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sol wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 14:46 With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
There is one and only one reason why an F35A purchase would make sense. The return of nuclear QRA.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:46
sol wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 14:46 With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
There is one and only one reason why an F35A purchase would make sense. The return of nuclear QRA.
debatable

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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new guy wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:59
SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:46
sol wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 14:46 With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
There is one and only one reason why an F35A purchase would make sense. The return of nuclear QRA.
debatable
In what way?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 17:08
new guy wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:59
SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:46
sol wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 14:46 With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
There is one and only one reason why an F35A purchase would make sense. The return of nuclear QRA.
debatable
In what way?
Political ramifications,
cost of getting new nuclear bombs and the entire support system following it,
GCAP could be nuclear capable,
Is it worth the expense, as aircraft will need to be forward deployed and then go strait to the target to deploy weapon,
e.c.t.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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new guy wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 18:41
SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 17:08
new guy wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:59
SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 16:46
sol wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 14:46 With third F-35B squadron currently lacking 400 millions in budget, it is really hard to see how anyone could hope for RAF to get one or more F-35A squadrons. I don't think this is realistic to happen, and even if there are some money for it, IMO it would be better to spend it on fourth F-35B squadron for carriers. After all, if not deployed on carrier, those planes could always be used from land airfields.
There is one and only one reason why an F35A purchase would make sense. The return of nuclear QRA.
debatable
In what way?
Political ramifications,
cost of getting new nuclear bombs and the entire support system following it,
GCAP could be nuclear capable,
Is it worth the expense, as aircraft will need to be forward deployed and then go strait to the target to deploy weapon,
e.c.t.
I would agree huge cost. GCAP could be but doubt the other partners would want it or we would develop our own weapon for it.

Adoption the American b61 and joining the nato sharing program would be the route and only reason for an f35a procurement. Not saying it’s a particularly good idea but the only reason I could see for justifying it.

As for range they would do what the French force de frappe do launch tank over Western Europe and run in.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Little J wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 12:01 This is just stupid, firstly there's no money, secondly there's a desperate requirement to fill up carriers in a time of war and thirdly it would fook up Tempest... Why does this idea keep getting rolled out every year???

I've reached the conclusion that Nicholas Drummond is the most ill-informed Miltwitter account out there...recently he has spouted some absolute guff. Some clearly on behalf of paying customers.

To put it simply there will be no-one in the RAF putting this forward....its complete bullshit.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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agreed. His opinion on the OPV's was quite funny, just sang a lack of understanding.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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809 NAS Officially Recommissioned

(Military Aviation TV) 8th December 2023
A second frontline F-35B Lightning stealth fighter squadron has been stood up at RAF Marham.
809 Naval Air Squadron, known as the Immortals, has a long and distinguished history and has been recommissioned as the nation’s second front-line fighter unit operating the F-35B Lightning stealth fighter.

At the parade at RAF Marham, Norfolk, Commander Nick Smith formally received the Squadron Crest from his predecessor, Cdr (Ret’d) Tim Gedge, close to 41 years to the day since 809 NAS decommissioned as a Sea Harrier squadron.

In common with the Sea Harrier, the B variant of Lightning is equally at home operating on land or from the decks of Royal Navy aircraft carriers.

Vice Admiral Martin Connell, Second Sea Lord said: “809 Naval Air Squadron has a proud heritage and it is therefore entirely fitting that our nation's most capable F-35 combat air force now has a second RN/RAF front line squadron which carries the 'Immortals' name into this modern era as we continue to expand our global carrier strike capability.”

Air Marshal Harv Smyth, Air & Space Commander said: “On behalf of the RAF and our Combat Air Force, it is simply superb to see 809 Squadron stand-up, continuing our endeavours to grow the Lightning Force. I know from my time on Joint Force Harrier and multiple tours in the Lightning enterprise, that when the RAF and RN operate together, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And when equipped with Lightning, it makes for an unbeatable combination for the Combat Air Force, capable of delivering next generation air power from land and sea.”

Of the more than 100 historic Fleet Air Arm units whose numbers are currently dormant, 809 was selected more than a decade ago as a F-35 Lightning formation, largely due to its illustrious history as a strike and attack squadron having received battle honours from operations in the Arctic, Mediterranean, Burma, Suez and South Atlantic over a 41-year period.

Commander Nick Smith, Commanding Officer 809 NAS said: “It is an honour and privilege to be afforded the opportunity to command 809 NAS and lead the workup to Full Operational Capability. The Squadron has a rich history of Royal Navy / Royal Air Force integration from the days of operating the Blackburn Buccaneer at RAF Lossiemouth in the 1960’s and 1970’s, to the Falklands Conflict in 1982 and this is set to endure well into the future.

“The latest re-incarnation of “Phoenix Squadron” will see this joint service approach deliver a world-leading 5th Generation combat air capability, deployable from both land and sea.”

The recommissioning sees the number of UK squadrons operating the Lightning expand to four, 809 joining 617 Dambusters Sqn, 207 Sqn (Operational Conversion Unit) and 17 Test and Evaluation Sqn. All are operated by both RAF and RN personnel and the commanding officer and senior pilot also alternate between the two Services.
Plane used for 809 NAS livery is BK-17, ZM151
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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The U.S. Military Industrial Complex strikes back:


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