Army 2020 Refine

[ArmChairCivvy]

could it be the control end will be provided by the regular army with the gun end commin from the reserves

fOR lg would be a great idea, save for the two specialised batteries (PARA/ RM).
- and when seldom used in quanties, like the GMLRS, the 2nd (and more) unit(s) can be all reserves

[marktigger]

could it be the control end will be provided by the regular army with the gun end commin from the reserves

fOR lg would be a great idea, save for the two specialised batteries (PARA/ RM).
- and when seldom used in quanties, like the GMLRS, the 2nd (and more) unit(s) can be all reserves

2 specailsed Para/Commando batteries? do you mean 7th (Para) REGIMENT Royal Horse Artillery & 29th (Commando) REGIMENT Royal Artillery

[ArmChairCivvy]

29th (Commando) REGIMENT Royal Artillery

OK, whatever you want to call "The Commando Gunners are equipped with twelve 105mm Light Guns and Fire Support Teams (FSTs) trained to coordinate firepower for the combat arm."["]
- anything less than 18 is a battery (to me, and most armies in the world)
- here we can of course fool ourselves to the heart's liking, but in the good old days a Rgmnt had 32 tubes and a battery 8 as shown in this example http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0045.html

[marktigger]

funny at the start of WW2 a regt was only 2 batteries of 8 guns

looking in a 1980's publication used in the army 29's batteries are listed as having 6 guns each (including their TA battery)

[ArmChairCivvy]

And what are the respective answers to the next level up, from battery?

Not a bone of contention; just interesting.

[marktigger]

7 Para RHA 18 guns in 3 Batteries
29 CDO RA 18 guns in 3 Batteries
FH70 regt 18 guns in 3 batteries
FH70 regt 18 Guns in 3 batteries
FH70 Regt 18 guns in 3 batteries
AMF(L) btry had 6 guns
TA field regt on L118 had 24 guns in 3 batteries
Cdo Btry (V) had 6 guns

In BAOR batteries in the field regiments were 8 guns either Abbot or M109 3 batteries per regt 3 regts per Armoured Div (except 2 div who got an FH 70 regt from UK)
MLRS Batteries were 9 launchers Per battery 2 batteries per regt 1 regt had SW battery 1 regt had Loc Btry 2 regts total
Lance was 4 launchers per battery 3 batteries per regt 2 regts total

[Gabriele]

Army 2020 Refine is a pile of crap, and the "announcement" is a crime in itself: Carter posted a two minutes video on Twitter and then went on fucking holiday and people across the army are left scratching their heads looking at incomplete reports and trying to figure out what it means for their units.

The COs of 3 RHA and 4 RA didn't get the memo about losing guns. They have written in the past few days about "retaining current capabilities" and "growing a little" with a new medium gun by 2025.
The new medium gun also appears in the letter from the 1st Artillery Brigade commander.

Now this report comes out. Other COs are still silent, some have literally written "i'm still looking into this, i don't know".
This is disrespectful and amateurish to indescribable levels.

[Spinflight]

I suspect the wheeled gun by 2025 is optimistic. Can't see any room for it in the current equipment budget, which runs till 2025.

Hence are they merely hoping for a decision to buy sometime after 2025?

More amateurish than calling a recce IFV a medium tank? Or indeed of blowing hundreds of millions selecting armoured vehicles which themselves only cost single digit millions each?

[marktigger]

I suspect the wheeled gun by 2025 is optimistic. Can't see any room for it in the current equipment budget, which runs till 2025.

Hence are they merely hoping for a decision to buy sometime after 2025?

More amateurish than calling a recce IFV a medium tank? Or indeed of blowing hundreds of millions selecting armoured vehicles which themselves only cost single digit millions each?

optimistic in what way the RA have their eye on 2 systems already in service with other armies

[ArmChairCivvy]

AMF(L) btry had 6 guns

Cdo Btry (V) had 6 guns

As AMF(L) is no more, but was mainly directed at N. Norway, the current 12 seem to have a direct lineage there?
- for light forces it is not so much the number of guns, but the means of keeping them supplied with rounds

a new medium gun by 2025.
The new medium gun also appears in the letter from the 1st Artillery Brigade commander.

- building a book (for riskless profit) about that one being the wheeled 155 mm for the Strike Bdes
- as the Bdes are meant to be operational by.... 2025!

[marktigger]

AMF(L) btry had 6 guns

Cdo Btry (V) had 6 guns

As AMF(L) is no more, but was mainly directed at N. Norway, the current 12 seem to have a direct lineage there?
- for light forces it is not so much the number of guns, but the means of keeping them supplied with rounds

these figures are from mid 80's hence M109/Abbot/FH70/Lance

[Spinflight]

optimistic in what way the RA have their eye on 2 systems already in service with other armies

Well 3 RHA + 4 RA, assuming 3 batteries of 6 wouldn't get much change ( at current prices ) from £200m. Assume 2% inflation and it's going to be closer to £250m.

Land systems budget for 2024/25 isn't much over £500m, some of which is already committed.

I don't think there's a system the RA hasn't eyed up. 52 cal AS90s, M777s etc. Nothing has come of them.

Altogether sounds a bit more like wishful thinking towards the extreme edge of the current budget cycle than an actual plan to me.

[marktigger]

regts are now 2 batteries

[Gabriele]

Everything i've been able to collate this far, updated to this minute: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -than.html

[Spinflight]

Light gun are, didn't know the 155s were down to 2 batteries....

[ArmChairCivvy]

Well 3 RHA + 4 RA, assuming 3 batteries of 6 wouldn't get much change ( at current prices ) from £200m. Assume 2% inflation and it's going to be closer to £250m.

2 x 2 x 6 makes 24, a new K9 is about $4m, so with Brit mods, call that £4m... so a clean £100m
- funnily enough, Finland wanted some for 100m euros, and got 36-50, already tested with domestic networked batlle mgt system, currently used rounds and a Swedish counter-btry radar
- how come 50% to 100% more units? Had to buy used, to begin with. All done in a year, compare with Polish project for a similar piece: 20 years, two changes of gun and the only really domestic part is the fire control/ networked battle mgt system

[ArmChairCivvy]

Light gun are, didn't know the 155s were down to 2 batteries....

About 90 kept, some in Batus (?), 3 Rgmnts... makes ?

[Gabriele]

Light gun are, didn't know the 155s were down to 2 batteries....

They aren't, nor they are planned to be in Army 2020 Refine according to what has been released so far. 3 batteries of 6 guns each.
See: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -than.html

Only 7 RHA is down to two batteries. 29 Commando is still trying to determine the future of 7 Bty. First it was to lose the guns, then it kept them, then it was to become a TaC Gp only. Move out of Arbroath, stay put, Move out, and now it is "wait in Arbroath because the whole regiment doesn't yet know where to go when the Citadel is vacated".

This, in short, has been the story since 2010.

3 RHA and 4 RA have 12 guns only, but eventually won a battle to spread them in 3 batteries rather than 2. Initially the plan was 2 gun batteries and 2 Tac Gp bties (3 for 4th RA). Now is 3+1 (2 for 4th RA).

[marktigger]

Light gun are, didn't know the 155s were down to 2 batteries....

structure of 1RHA & 19 Fld is 2 batteries of AS90 an OP Battery and HQ btry

26 seams to be picking up the batteries of GMLRS

[marktigger]

interesting Wikipedia seams to be up to speed on what the gunners are doing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Artil ... South_West

[Spinflight]

Anyone get the impression that half the British Army are looking at Gabriele's blog to find out what's happening to them?

The other half of course don't care.

[Gabriele]

Well, the blog has had a spike of nearly 22.000 visits the other day... Compared to between 2000 and 4000 normally. Yesterday and today, 9000 or so each day.
So... yes.

[arfah]

Well done.

[Lord Jim]

If Army 2020 Refine is pursued it is going to leave the British Army in the worst state it has been in that I can even research in the past. We will end up with two understrength Armoured Infantry Brigades, each including an "Orphan" Infantry Battalion in Mastiffs, and one and a half Strike brigades that are too heavy to rapidly deploy but with insufficient firepower and support to be effective. This will leave the UK with only its two high readiness light Brigades of any real worth but as it say in the title these are LIGHT formations.

It is pretty much a given that there is going to be little or no new money for defence and that he 2% promise will continue to be padded out by transferring other areas so they are part of the Defence budget, so that is not going to be lots of money to sort the current issues out after 2025, but rather a wish list from Officers who can see the problems on the way.

Previously I stated I couldn't see a role or need for Ajax and that we should concentrate on MIV. That was my wish list. In reality we should give up on the MIV programme and use any funds allocated to increase the number of Ajax variants so that the three and a half reactive brigades are more appropriately equipped Ideally we should end up with two "Strike", Brigades and we actually may do. The current plans for units mainly equipped with the 40mm CTA variant of the Ajax should be scrapped as of now. Each Strike Brigade should come with three Mechanised Infantry Battalions each with 3 Companies of Ajax (APC) and one Company of Ajax(40CTA). This would be supported buy a Support Company with an Overwatch Section of six to eight Ajax(ATGW) and Mortar section of six to eight Ajax(Mortar). In addition the Ajax(40CTA) should have turret mounted Javelin ATGW to compliment the Ajax (ATGW) equipped with a heavy weapon system.

These formations should be the Army's priority followed by the CA2 SLEP with the Warrior upgrade CANCELLED, but the turrets placed in storage. Ajax production should be continued well past 2025 and beyond the current plans, being used to replace Warrior using the previously mentioned turrets in a IFV variant and other Ajax used to replace the Warrior and FV432 in the support role. This should be the Army's priority post 2025, followed by the successor to the CA2 between 2030 and 2035.

I have not included a variant of the Ajax with either a 105mm or 120mm above because retaining a number of MBTs would be far more useful than a MGS. However the Mortar Sections in the Mechanised and Armoured Infantry Battalions could in an ideal world be equipped with a turret mounted breach loading mortar providing additional direct fire support. Then again a fused 40mm Auto cannon can blow pretty big holes in walls etc. as well.

In all of the above formations I totally agree with posts above by those recommending the purchase of a vehicle in the class of the Fennik to take on the Recce role, with each Battalion having a Platoon/troop of six vehicles.

All of the above does return the Army to a heavy biased organisation, but with Ajax on the way diverting resources to purchase a wheeled platform will diminish the effectiveness of the Army as a whole. Calling current plans a dog's dinner simply offends dogs.

[marktigger]

how may types of infantry in how many different vehicles?

Warrior
Ajax
Boxer
Foxhound
Mastiff

cavalry in

Challenger 2
Ajax
Jackel


I can see savings straight away