Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

[Caribbean]

A question - does the EU have any say over who joins EFTA or the conditions that EFTA sets for membership??

[ArmChairCivvy]

does the EU have any say over who joins EFTA or the conditions that EFTA sets for membership??

No, but I guess you are embedding a question about the EEA in there, too?
- on that one I will have to disagree with Lord Owen (F.S. 1977-79), as he says that we never served notice on EEA (Sunday Times, 2 Dec) and therefo could drop back straight in
- EEA is a bilateral agreement between the EU and EFTA, so I would think on this one EFTA has a say. Speculatively, were we to renege on those parts of the payments in the WA that stand for the net of our assets and liabilities with the EU, the EU could counter by not applying the EEA terms to us, until we agree to pay up
- getting out of CPA and CFP does not mean that we would not need to negotiate on the latter topic, but rather than being a minority in a bloc, we would be an independent party to the negotiation

Too much cakeism in their view

You are right. The Swiss have such a good agreement (they also resigned from EFTA to forego the payments that on Norway's part amount to 1.5 bn a year for the main item alone, so the total bill for the Swiss is about 1/10th a year of what Norway pays)... that the EU are trying to force them out of the agreed terms.
- that has been going on for years, but they intensified the efforts in the fear of us asking for the same!

[ArmChairCivvy]

After money and fish... had to look up what part of the WA would be impacted, and how:
"Art. 56.3 of the EFTA Convention states that a new EFTA member state ‘shall apply to become a party to the free trade agreements between the Member States on the one hand and third states, unions of states or international organisations on the other.’ As a member of a customs union, a country acceding to EFTA could not comply with this obligation."

[R686]

What a joke it seems that the democratic process cannot be just thrown down the cutter because its getting too hard, if the government accepted that they will comply with the wishes at the referendum but then accept the result of the second referendum, why not accept the result of the first?

The politicians knew that article 50 was always going to be tough as the rules favour the EU just draw out the process till they get a favourable result, I think its high time that the UK bring out the big guns and link Defence and Security(NATO) with the Brexit, and turn to increased cooperation within 5 Eyes

Give the EU a big http://www.sherv.net/queen.giving.finge ... -3323.html

[abc123]

I think its high time that the UK bring out the big guns and link Defence and Security(NATO) with the Brexit, and turn to increased cooperation within 5 Eyes

Give the EU a big http://www.sherv.net/queen.giving.finge ... -3323.html

The ( rest of ) the EU don't care. You're not THAT important. We're actually trying to do you a favour for the last 2 years, and look what we are getting as thank you?

[Caribbean]

You're not THAT important.

But, all of a sudden, other EU governments are going to have to start raiding other budgets to start financing defence. Add to that the rise in contributions to the EU budget (many countries will, for the first time, become net contributors, rather than net recipients) and the impact will be felt. It's not just UK Brexiteers that have their heads in the sand over the issue of EU finances.
And the EU has done no-one any favours over the last two years, not even themselves

[Dave]

The leadership of the opposition are clearly trying to take party political advantage, also contemptuous of those who voted to leave. They should all remember that their legitimacy only comes from people, such as those they are contemptuous of.

Yes, but their ( Labour ) voters mostly voted for remain. Or am I wrong?

Even if they didn’t, there’s a lot majority of Labour supporters wanting a second referendum, and even worse for Jezza, his core supporters who got him to leader are young and so remain/peoples vote.

Labour activists who want to ditch Brexit because they believe it will make it impossible for the party to implement a leftwing manifesto have launched a fresh campaign for a second referendum.

The move puts Jeremy Corbyn under increasing pressure to drop his resistance to a new public vote.

A “model motion” stating that Labour should campaign to put the issue to the people again and then back Remain is being circulated to all constituency Labour parties by Corbyn supporters. They hope most local parties will sign up to it before Theresa May returns her Brexit deal to the House of Commons some time next month.

The campaign is being run by young leftwing Labour activists headed by Michael Chessum, a former member of the steering committee of the pro-Corbyn grassroots movement Momentum.

and from the same article

When asked whether, in the event that May’s deal is voted down by parliament, there should then be another public vote, 46% of UK adults said they thought there should definitely or probably be one, against 40% who thought there probably or definitely should not be.

Among Labour supporters 65% favour the idea of a second referendum against 21% who oppose it. Among Tory supporters 31% back the idea against 60% who oppose it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum

[ArmChairCivvy]

We're actually trying to do you a favour

We have not had much success in trying to identify from which country your messaging comes from, but just as a reminder: The UK has been in the EU for the period that you are referring to.

They hope most local parties will sign up to it before Theresa May returns her Brexit deal to the House of Commons some time next month.

Interesting how deadlines start to focus the minds

And Momentum (or its hangers-on) scaring the sh&t out of the Brexiteers Love it
= time to grow up, and get real

[ArmChairCivvy]

Even judging by today's comments https://news.sky.com/story/where-do-for ... t-11582938
it is easy to see why some were kept away from power. Best picks (from both sides of "the fence"):

John Major "has called for Article 50 to be revoked to give politicians across the Commons time to work through what he termed the "morass".["]... swamp of course is currently reserved (as a term) for another political arena

Tony Blair (in what can be seen as a broader response to Henry the VIII tendencies)
"The sensible thing is now to allow parliament to vote on each of the forms of Brexit canvassed including the prime minister’s deal. If they can’t reach agreement then the logical thing is to go back to the people."

[Scimitar54]

The logical thing is to dispense with those parliamentary "creatures" who feel they have the divine right to redefine what people actually voted for. People did know very well what they were voting for as the government of the day spelt out the risks in a booklet sent to every household in the country (and paid for by our taxes).

[ArmChairCivvy]

People did know very well what they were voting for [...and...] the risks

The rumour has it that Boris and DD never read it, and even though TM was also late to that party, the day she did, she dropped the "No deal is better than a bad deal" slogan
- I wonder if the rumour is true

[Scimitar54]

Only one way to find out!

[abc123]

You're not THAT important.

But, all of a sudden, other EU governments are going to have to start raiding other budgets to start financing defence.

Yep, if UK armed forces that go from strength to strength (cut to cut), don't defend us from evol Russkies, nothing will.

[abc123]

We're actually trying to do you a favour

We have not had much success in trying to identify from which country your messaging comes from, but just as a reminder: The UK has been in the EU for the period that you are referring to.

You see, this is the reason why I prefer not to disclose the country I'm from. Because if I'm saying the truth, it isn't important where I'm coming from, and vice versa.
Anyway, I must say that I didn't quite understand what you want to say with that last sentence.

[abc123]

You know how this situation looks to the people in EU?

Like some club of men from some village where these men were having parties, drinking etc. Then, stupid wife of one of these guys forbid him to go there anymore. So, what to do? He want's to keep coming to the club, but without his wife knowing that. So, the rest of the club say's: OK, he's one of us, not that we love him too much, because he allways had some special requests, but he's one of us, so we'll try to help him. So they change their meetings from evening to afternoon so he can come after work.
But, he's still afraid of his wife, so he would like to move the meetings to 1pm, when he's having a lunch break.
Try imagine what will they do then?

[ArmChairCivvy]

I quite like the description above , but as for

Anyway, I must say that I didn't quite understand what you want to say with that last sentence.

I very much doubt that you are from any EU country and using that just as a cloke [ there is no "to be frowned upon" emoji available ]
- indeed, what happened in Kosovo still seems to be like a sore big toe that hit a stone that long ago... the repeated references and the tone that goes with them gives me a good idea indeed as to which way from the EU the compass is pointing

[Caribbean]

Yep, if UK armed forces that go from strength to strength (cut to cut), don't defend us from evol Russkies, nothing will.

And the rest of what I said. The financial effect is cumulative.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Tunnel vision is a dangerous thing.

However, this new idea of 'managed no deal' is some sort of nonsense that would replicate the critical parts (which are they?) of the 160 sectoral deals that Switzerland has with the EU. 'Managing out' does not sound like an appealing option to anyone who has worked in corporate life... especially as in this case the Loss of Office payment flows the wrong way .

BBC says ""Plan B" options include:

1 pursuing different Norway or Canada-style arrangements with the EU
2 leaving on the basis of a "managed no deal"
3 delaying Brexit to restart negotiations;this is embedded in "1"... could be a flavour of the day?
- just to soften impact (embarrassment)
4 hold a fresh referendum; what's the question

3:30 p.m. (though this from the beeb!beeb! does not make it that time: "The prime minister is due to update MPs at 15:30 GMT") onwards we will hear, whether there are any plans for exiting "the tunnel". I won't be watching - not because the answer would not be interesting. But because the likelihood on an answer is so exceedingly low

[abc123]

I quite like the description above , but as for

Anyway, I must say that I didn't quite understand what you want to say with that last sentence.

I very much doubt that you are from any EU country and using that just as a cloke [ there is no "to be frowned upon" emoji available ]
- indeed, what happened in Kosovo still seems to be like a sore big toe that hit a stone that long ago... the repeated references and the tone that goes with them gives me a good idea indeed as to which way from the EU the compass is pointing

So, if I think that independence of Kosovo was rape of international law ( same as independence of Crimea, Abkhasia or South Ossetia ) that surely means that I'm from either Russia or Serbia, right? Not that Serbia didn't deserve to lose Kosovo- because they would like to have Kosovo, but without Albanians...

But never mind that, it isn't really important where do I live, in the EU, out of the EU, Russia, China, Mars etc. I don't have to live in the EU so that I can write something obvious about this current situation about Brexit. Or the opposite. Or to understand how continental Europe sees this circus about Brexit and deal.
And you are entitled to believe whatever do you want.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Oh, Ms. Kuensberg surely has more interesting things to say/ update about?

"That's despite the fact that the government actually has a deal. Sure, it looks unlikely to pass Parliament as it stands. But as a revealing snap (yet another one) caught the Brexit official Olly Robbins' file today, there are discussions going on with the EU about a tweak to the controversial backstop."
- the deal is an exit deal... the issue is about where it will take us (the corridor that we will be staring down)
- and the "revealing snap" had been censored

[ArmChairCivvy]

Now I agree with the use of the term:
@SkyNews

"This is a constitutional crisis" - Conservative MP @JustineGreening slams the prime minister in the House of Commons, claiming Theresa May 'is trying to stop debate' in parliament over Brexit"
- must have been a good line as Corby straight after parrots it

Well, are we surprised: no Plan B, no thinking on it or debating, no action plan (should it be required) to agree which one ...

[R686]

This makes for an interesting read, Brexit means Brexit either the May government was naïve or engineered a result aspiring for the deal to collapse and remain in the EU. I just cant figure it out if it was really self inflicted or not.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13 ... on-brexit/

Before the Prime Minister had even turned up for her first ever leaders’ meeting, the combination of that decision to guarantee notification by a certain date and the red lines substance of her first Party Conference leaders’ speech had completely cemented the solidarity of the 27, which has held soundly ever since, on how to kick off and to design the sequencing of the process which has led to where we are today.

[ArmChairCivvy]

What chances now I ask myself for corbyn team to be at number 10

According to The Times of today, they realise that the chances of bringing the Gvmnt down are quite low, so instead they will:
- propose a no confidence vote in Mrs. May's ability to be the PM
- one of the very few good ideas from Corbyn (if it was an idea hatched by him )

And today that happened
"Jeremy Corbyn tabled a vote of no confidence in Theresa May personally"
... as he needs to be seen doing something!

[Dave]

What chances now I ask myself for corbyn team to be at number 10

According to The Times of today, they realise that the chances of bringing the Gvmnt down are quite low, so instead they will:
- propose a no confidence vote in Mrs. May's ability to be the PM
- one of the very few good ideas from Corbyn (if it was an idea hatched by him )

And today that happened
"Jeremy Corbyn tabled a vote of no confidence in Theresa May personally"
... as he needs to be seen doing something!

And apparently made a cock up of the wording, quelle surprise....

[dmereifield]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-t ... ter-brexit

Don't see the Beeb or other mainstream media outlets highlighting this, funnily enough. So much for the "no-side deals" in the event of leaving without the withdrawl agreement....