Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 05 May 2023, 13:30
Tempest414 wrote: 05 May 2023, 10:20 So when I look at this it is slightly bigger Absalon with 2 x Palfigar slipway systems and what I have been saying for 6 months or more
Is it bigger? I don’t think so, its displacement is larger but it measures 139m LOA with a beam around 20m if my calculations are correct.
C9AB0963-2B73-4FEF-BE60-CB7A33CDFF93.jpeg 13944819-EB62-4844-99D4-26E7D4381A3B.jpeg
It is very much a reconfigured Absalon albeit with T31 improvements.

- The Flex Deck has been raised by one deck presumably to improve damage control and the flight deck has therefore correspondingly been raised by one deck also.

- The hanger has been shortened to allow space for the UAV lift and an extra deck has been added above the hanger. The reason for this is not immediately apparent and it appears to add a lot of extra top weight to a design that already had a pretty high centre of gravity.

- The large amidships open working deck appears unchanged dimensionally other than the size and layout of the superstructure fore and aft.

- The intake and exhaust arrangement looks more like Absalon than IH so top speed may be more in the 24-25knts range rather than 28-30knts.

- The mission spaces are extremely generous but how many is too many? Are these vessels trying to do too much?
In short, it looks very top-heavy. May be it needs to extend the width? If not, I'm almost sure that it cannot meet the RN center-of-gravity standard, which is much strict than that of other NATO nations.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 05 May 2023, 13:43 [In short, it looks very top-heavy. May be it needs to extend the width? If not, I'm almost sure that it cannot meet the RN center-of-gravity standard, which is much strict than that of other NATO nations.
I agree, a beam adjustment would correct it but that means a clean sheet of paper.

The simple fact is that these multipurpose designs are compromised until the beam measures 22m minimum.

The other issue is lack of accommodation for the crew and the EMF. Absalon provided temporary accommodation on the Flex Deck but with the Flex Deck compartmentalised meeting habitability standards for the core crew, EMF, flight and support personnel is going to be tough or impossible. Filling the hull with copious amounts of manned and unmanned craft plus helos and weapon systems all adds to the burden.

If RN pursue this idea in a Frigate configuration it will take years to mature a design unless it is drastically simplified.

I think the MCRV and the ASF are just trying to do too much.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Babcock's initial punt at Type 32 (for which there's still no money).

https://www.navylookout.com/babcock-sho ... mpetition/

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

RichardIC wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 17:44 Babcock's initial punt at Type 32 (for which there's still no money).

https://www.navylookout.com/babcock-sho ... mpetition/

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As said on the future Escort thread not bad effort one can see how this could follow on from type 31 and stay at a good price say 300 million per ship

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 18:43
RichardIC wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 17:44 Babcock's initial punt at Type 32 (for which there's still no money).

https://www.navylookout.com/babcock-sho ... mpetition/

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As said on the future Escort thread not bad effort one can see how this could follow on from type 31 and stay at a good price say 300 million per ship
Plus you always have the Indonesian option of adding the stretched bow with extra VLS.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 18:43
RichardIC wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 17:44 Babcock's initial punt at Type 32 (for which there's still no money).

https://www.navylookout.com/babcock-sho ... mpetition/

Image

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As said on the future Escort thread not bad effort one can see how this could follow on from type 31 and stay at a good price say 300 million per ship
Yes- 6 for £2.5bn seems achievable.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Bring Deeps »

The short bow gives it a pugnacious bulldog look compared to the sleek greyhound profile of the Type 26. More fighty.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Bring Deeps wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 07:24 The short bow gives it a pugnacious bulldog look compared to the sleek greyhound profile of the Type 26. More fighty.
Sleek Greyhound? Type 26? The T26 is a right busier compared to T45.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

T31B2 is the only way if.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Jake1992 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:45
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.
If T32 does happen, one of the strongest 'if's in the Navy, We can only afford T31. A whole new design is not only just outside our budget, it is outside the reason, neglecting AH140's potential and all the investment we have in it.
Crossover doesn't exist, well actually it does, in concept.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by mrclark303 »

new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 13:56
Jake1992 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:45
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.
If T32 does happen, one of the strongest 'if's in the Navy, We can only afford T31. A whole new design is not only just outside our budget, it is outside the reason, neglecting AH140's potential and all the investment we have in it.
Crossover doesn't exist, well actually it does, in concept.
If T32 does happen, then it needs to a simple batch 2 T31, uparmed as needed.

Development costs need to be kept as low as possible.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

mrclark303 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 14:19
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 13:56
Jake1992 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:45
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.
If T32 does happen, one of the strongest 'if's in the Navy, We can only afford T31. A whole new design is not only just outside our budget, it is outside the reason, neglecting AH140's potential and all the investment we have in it.
Crossover doesn't exist, well actually it does, in concept.
If T32 does happen, then it needs to a simple batch 2 T31, up-armed as needed.

Development costs need to be kept as low as possible.
Exactly, just what I said.
Same as T31, but with:
. Sound mitigations.
. Maybe better radar.(Should this wait for a joint artisan replacement as artisan is already midlife and we could do/be better off waiting?)
. Some all-round improvements.
. space for 16 NSM
. 32 MK41 ( or the space for them, same as on T31)
. Forward and rear 40mm
. LMM launchers. ( maybe)
. Forward and rear starboard boat bays conjoined into one ( Still separate doors, just no useless wall blocking to adjacent boat bays)
. Hangar that is widened to the right + side ramp ( as seen in AH140 MNP)
. extended hanger that overlaps with rear starboard boat bay ( as seen it AH140 MNP)
. Rear port boat bay joined with the hanger for a larger multi-role space.
. Under flight-deck work deck does not have ramp as shown in AH140, just a space for PODS side deployment and containerised / non-containerised CAPTAS-4
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
Was it ever going to be anything other than T31 Batch 2? As the then 1SL said they were going to propose T31 B2 but didn't think that was sexy enough pitch so sexed up the dossier with a few buzzwords adaptability autonomous etc and went with T32.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

mrclark303 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 14:19
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 13:56
Jake1992 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:45
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.
If T32 does happen, one of the strongest 'if's in the Navy, We can only afford T31. A whole new design is not only just outside our budget, it is outside the reason, neglecting AH140's potential and all the investment we have in it.
Crossover doesn't exist, well actually it does, in concept.
If T32 does happen, then it needs to a simple batch 2 T31, uparmed as needed.

Development costs need to be kept as low as possible.
Well as T32 is T31 B2 no need to worry.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jake1992 wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:45
new guy wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 12:09
T31B2 is the only way if.
My personal choice would be something like the Crossover 139 and continue the build to replace the T31s at mid life to sell them to the likes of Chillie and Brazil to replace their T22s and T23s.

To me the Crossover 139 just gives better flexiblity, it’ll allow far better use of unmanned systems going forward as well as better to deploy small RM / SF raiding parties, it’ll also be able to contribute to small scale HADR.
I would hold off on that idea until the Anglo-Dutch MRSS Amphibs designs are finalised.

https://www.navylookout.com/multi-role- ... apability/

Although both nations want to replace 6 of their ships, whilst the RN is looking at replacing Argus, both Albions and 3 Bays, the Dutch are looking to replace their two different Damen Enforcer designed ships and their 4 Holland class global patrol vessels (which were based on a Damen patrol vessel).

Assuming that Damen are going to revise one of their existing portfolio of designs (which should keep design costs down as not starting from scratch) to come up with an updated Holland Class, and as a joint project that should mean design costs are shared and thusshould be lower cost to RN, we might get a better, cheaper alternative to the Damen Crossover, and also one that is based on a revision to an establishd stable design rather than the still untested Crossover, which from memory has nt yet been used as a basis for an actual in-service ship design.

But we do not yet know what the T32 and/or MRSS Budgets are going to be. But personally if the T32 could stretch to 3 such Damen Son-of-Holland class patrol vessels (which should be similar to the so-called high-capacity OPVs such as Vard 7 313 that have been discussed here previously), plus one additional T26 plus one additional T31, then I would be happy. Assuming the T32 Budget can stretch that far.

That would still leave the entirety of any MRSS budget available to replace our 6 amphibs, which I will leave to that thread.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 19:38 … if the T32 could stretch to 3 such Damen Son-of-Holland class patrol vessels (which should be similar to the so-called high-capacity OPVs such as Vard 7 313 that have been discussed here previously), plus one additional T26 plus one additional T31, then I would be happy. Assuming the T32 Budget can stretch that far.
I would be happy also, but we are still far from the T32 becoming a budgeted reality - even then people still have their heads in the sand of the train crash that’s coming by pretending we can afford to feed two yards.

Also, I seriously do not understand those arguing for more T31s, it’s a design that is not needed and even if a T26 mission bay was added it’s still going to be a dated and compromised design.

Given a choice I would be be looking at 3 OPV replacement and another T26 - but if the government is going to continue the farce that the budget extends to two “frigate” yards then following the Dutch on a Holland replacement and calling it a “frigate” is probably the next best option.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Repulse wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 08:51
wargame_insomniac wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 19:38 … if the T32 could stretch to 3 such Damen Son-of-Holland class patrol vessels (which should be similar to the so-called high-capacity OPVs such as Vard 7 313 that have been discussed here previously), plus one additional T26 plus one additional T31, then I would be happy. Assuming the T32 Budget can stretch that far.
I would be happy also, but we are still far from the T32 becoming a budgeted reality - even then people still have their heads in the sand of the train crash that’s coming by pretending we can afford to feed two yards.

Also, I seriously do not understand those arguing for more T31s, it’s a design that is not needed and even if a T26 mission bay was added it’s still going to be a dated and compromised design.

Given a choice I would be be looking at 3 OPV replacement and another T26 - but if the government is going to continue the farce that the budget extends to two “frigate” yards then following the Dutch on a Holland replacement and calling it a “frigate” is probably the next best option.
1) yes, unlikely T32 will ever happen
2) We should be able to afford 2 yards. (Competent management dependant)
3) We do need more ships, it is a modernised design, built in the UK, in production, T26 is hardly new compared to T31 with all it's stalling, the T31 mission bay is already a compromised design, and we can only afford T31 for T32 if a budget does arise.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 09:01 2) We should be able to afford 2 yards. (Competent management dependant)
Putting aside the export fallacy that countries will pay for expensive builds in the UK when they can get it done cheaper at home or elsewhere, the only way this can happen is if the RN increases its spend. This would need to be coupled with short operational lives and selling on every 15 years unless you need to spend significant money to increase manpower and supporting functions.

To get to two efficient frigate yards the RN would probably need to find in the order of £1/2bn per year - not going to happen.
new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 09:01 3) We do need more ships, it is a modernised design, built in the UK, in production, T26 is hardly new compared to T31 with all it's stalling, the T31 mission bay is already a compromised design, and we can only afford T31 for T32 if a budget does arise.
The T26 design is atleast a decade later than the core of the T31.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Repulse wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 09:33
new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 09:01 2) We should be able to afford 2 yards. (Competent management dependant)
Putting aside the export fallacy that countries will pay for expensive builds in the UK when they can get it done cheaper at home or elsewhere, the only way this can happen is if the RN increases its spend. This would need to be coupled with short operational lives and selling on every 15 years unless you need to spend significant money to increase manpower and supporting functions.

To get to two efficient frigate yards the RN would probably need to find in the order of £1/2bn per year - not going to happen.
new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 09:01 3) We do need more ships, it is a modernised design, built in the UK, in production, T26 is hardly new compared to T31 with all it's stalling, the T31 mission bay is already a compromised design, and we can only afford T31 for T32 if a budget does arise.
The T26 design is atleast a decade later than the core of the T31.
OPV's, auxiliaries, and other smaller ships don't get made out of thin air. assuming both BAE and bacock do smaller vessels and combatants, H&W for larger ships ( Rep ships, ro-ro's, carriers, amphibs, so ~25 hulls) , and barrow for subs, I see no problem.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 08:51
wargame_insomniac wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 19:38 … if the T32 could stretch to 3 such Damen Son-of-Holland class patrol vessels (which should be similar to the so-called high-capacity OPVs such as Vard 7 313 that have been discussed here previously), plus one additional T26 plus one additional T31, then I would be happy. Assuming the T32 Budget can stretch that far.
I would be happy also, but we are still far from the T32 becoming a budgeted reality - even then people still have their heads in the sand of the train crash that’s coming by pretending we can afford to feed two yards.

Also, I seriously do not understand those arguing for more T31s, it’s a design that is not needed and even if a T26 mission bay was added it’s still going to be a dated and compromised design.

Given a choice I would be be looking at 3 OPV replacement and another T26 - but if the government is going to continue the farce that the budget extends to two “frigate” yards then following the Dutch on a Holland replacement and calling it a “frigate” is probably the next best option.
Type 31 is fast becoming a good frigate if it gets the Mk-41 and NSM there is nothing wrong with its design and yes type 26's hull design is a decade latter but everything else is old news

What type 31 offers if fitted with the Mk-41 and NSM is a real war fighting frigate for about 0.4 the price of type 26 no it can't do ASW duties anywhere near as well type 26 but it could add to the ASW picture if fitted with a TAS and it can do all the other duties of a frigate

I maybe wrong but I think type 31 with Mk-41 and NSM fitted will cost around 380 million type 26 batch 2 is now nudging 860 million with costs to come
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 12:05
Repulse wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 08:51
wargame_insomniac wrote: 09 Sep 2023, 19:38 … if the T32 could stretch to 3 such Damen Son-of-Holland class patrol vessels (which should be similar to the so-called high-capacity OPVs such as Vard 7 313 that have been discussed here previously), plus one additional T26 plus one additional T31, then I would be happy. Assuming the T32 Budget can stretch that far.
I would be happy also, but we are still far from the T32 becoming a budgeted reality - even then people still have their heads in the sand of the train crash that’s coming by pretending we can afford to feed two yards.

Also, I seriously do not understand those arguing for more T31s, it’s a design that is not needed and even if a T26 mission bay was added it’s still going to be a dated and compromised design.

Given a choice I would be be looking at 3 OPV replacement and another T26 - but if the government is going to continue the farce that the budget extends to two “frigate” yards then following the Dutch on a Holland replacement and calling it a “frigate” is probably the next best option.
Type 31 is fast becoming a good frigate if it gets the Mk-41 and NSM there is nothing wrong with its design and yes type 26's hull design is a decade latter but everything else is old news

What type 31 offers if fitted with the Mk-41 and NSM is a real war fighting frigate for about 0.4 the price of type 26 no it can't do ASW duties anywhere near as well type 26 but it could add to the ASW picture if fitted with a TAS and it can do all the other duties of a frigate

I maybe wrong but I think type 31 with Mk-41 and NSM fitted will cost around 380 million type 26 batch 2 is now nudging 860 million with costs to come
Absolutely.
programme cost for a T26 B3 will still be £1bn,
programme cost for a improved T31 will be £400-500m

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 11:42 OPV's, auxiliaries, and other smaller ships don't get made out of thin air. assuming both BAE and bacock do smaller vessels and combatants, H&W for larger ships ( Rep ships, ro-ro's, carriers, amphibs, so ~25 hulls) , and barrow for subs, I see no problem.
You shouldn’t be surprised if I said I was in favour of a yard focused on building frigates (+ destroyers) and a yard building minor warships (OPVs, MHPCs, OSVs, Sloops or whatever). But what you are proposing is that the skills for building complex frigates (+ destroyers) is like a tap that can be turned on and off for long periods and be expected to work and work efficiently - that is pure fiction and has been proved as such.
Tempest414 wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 12:05 Type 31 is fast becoming a good frigate if it gets the Mk-41 and NSM there is nothing wrong with its design and yes type 26's hull design is a decade latter but everything else is old news

What type 31 offers if fitted with the Mk-41 and NSM is a real war fighting frigate for about 0.4 the price of type 26 no it can't do ASW duties anywhere near as well type 26 but it could add to the ASW picture if fitted with a TAS and it can do all the other duties of a frigate

I maybe wrong but I think type 31 with Mk-41 and NSM fitted will cost around 380 million type 26 batch 2 is now nudging 860 million with costs to come
I don’t think we need to have another long debate around costs, but as always we are comparing apples with pears.

The RN can afford a fleet of purely mediocre T31 frigates that could possibly support two yards - it would be a political folly and leave the RN as a looks good on paper navy. The RN can also afford a fleet of quality tier one frigates and destroyers that supports one yard. The difference is probably as much as 30 T31s vs 15 T26/T45s, but the RN can never be a navy that can match the scale of other navies, it can only compete and defend UK interests on quality.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

new guy wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 12:24 programme cost for a T26 B3 will still be £1bn,
programme cost for a improved T31 will be £400-500m
What facts are you basing this on?
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