New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[Jensy]

Ignoring the platforms, and focusing purely on politics, my money's on Airbus. Should the programme go ahead before the election.

Why do you think that?

Alyn and Deeside is a far more marginal constituency than Yeovil.

It's had a Labour MP since it was created in 1983. Even if things got a bit dicey in 2019 at the height of Boris\Brexit mania I can't see how it could be considered a marginal now.

It's a long shot. Not denying that, but frankly Yeovil going Red is even more so. The Lib Dems seems to be fairly placid at the moment.. don't think we'll see another Clegg style upset.

As such, of the two potential manufacturing sites I'd say there's vastly more to be gained by going with Broughton. Were it not for the current low ebb of the Tories, the historical trend is definitely in their favour:

[Jensy]

Are we going to have a sweepstake.....
I'm still sticking with Leonardo's sacred Wasteland site will be secured at any cost....

I've added a (somewhat lighthearted) poll! Have fun.

P.S: Open to any obscure or mad suggestions people might like to add.

P.P.S: I've somehow managed to reset the poll by editing - The 149 was winning by a decent margin

[mrclark303]

Are we going to have a sweepstake.....
I'm still sticking with Leonardo's sacred Wasteland site will be secured at any cost....

I've added a (somewhat lighthearted) poll! Have fun.

P.S: Open to any obscure or mad suggestions people might like to add.

It's currently 50/50%, I'm convinced it will be a purely political decision bent and forced by the military industrial complex, as per usual.

So Wastelands gets it, I will be astonished at any other decision.

[tomuk]

Ignoring the platforms, and focusing purely on politics, my money's on Airbus. Should the programme go ahead before the election.

Why do you think that?

Alyn and Deeside is a far more marginal constituency than Yeovil.

It's had a Labour MP since it was created in 1983. Even if things got a bit dicey in 2019 at the height of Boris\Brexit mania I can't see how it could be considered a marginal now.

It's a long shot. Not denying that, but frankly Yeovil going Red is even more so. The Lib Dems seems to be fairly placid at the moment.. don't think we'll see another Clegg style upset.

As such, of the two potential manufacturing sites I'd say there's vastly more to be gained by going with Broughton. Were it not for the current low ebb of the Tories, the historical trend is definitely in their favour:

With current polls at 48% Labour, 24% Conservative with predictions of majorities of 280+. Building a couple of dozen helicopters at Broughton will swing the election?

Anyway won't jobs be safe in Broughton if they bring Peter Mandelson's Machine back on line.

[new guy]

Are we going to have a sweepstake.....
I'm still sticking with Leonardo's sacred Wasteland site will be secured at any cost....

I've added a (somewhat lighthearted) poll! Have fun.

P.S: Open to any obscure or mad suggestions people might like to add.

add FARA

[Jensy]

Are we going to have a sweepstake.....
I'm still sticking with Leonardo's sacred Wasteland site will be secured at any cost....

I've added a (somewhat lighthearted) poll! Have fun.

P.S: Open to any obscure or mad suggestions people might like to add.

add FARA

Ah, 'Comanche 2: The Next Generation'

Somewhat amused by this article I've just come across.... from the distant past of December 2023.

Why The Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft Remains Army Aviation’s Top Modernization Priority
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... -priority/

[Jensy]

With current polls at 48% Labour, 24% Conservative with predictions of majorities of 280+. Building a couple of dozen helicopters at Broughton will swing the election?

Anyway won't jobs be safe in Broughton if they bring Peter Mandelson's Machine back on line.

Very much of a different era! Never see much of Hugh Dennis anymore.

I'm a former political science postgrad. Expecting the unexpected is about the only fun left in our deeply flawed democracy.

I'd simply point to the polling Theresa May was enjoying a matter of weeks, and indeed days, before her near trouncing at the hands of Comrade Jezbollah, and his band of cranks, in 2017.

[sol]

So second phase of NMH officially started today. Seems like it ...

... will be bought largely off the shelf, with UK bespoke modifications keep to an absolute minimum.

... and H145 for Cyprus and Brunei will not impact total number of new helicopters required to replace Puma

[jonas]

seems a bit drawn out to me :-

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-bri ... ext-phase/

[SW1]

So second phase of NMH officially started today. Seems like it ...

... will be bought largely off the shelf, with UK bespoke modifications keep to an absolute minimum.

... and H145 for Cyprus and Brunei will not impact total number of new helicopters required to replace Puma

Remind me how much time and money wasted on producing defence industrial strategy documents?

[Ian Hall]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/futu ... tion-stage

[Poiuytrewq]

HMG must be heading for a world record in procrastination for the NMH program.

Regardless of the press releases the translation is something along the lines of….”due to inflation and the fact that we want to add pre election tax cutting giveaways to next months budget we have decided to further delay the NMH program to use the allocated funding to plug a little bit more of the black hole in the equipment budget.

P.S.
The NMH program is the next administrations problem now as once again there is no money left.”

It’s amazing Mr Cartlidge managed to keep a straight face.

[SW1]

HMG must be heading for a world record in procrastination for the NMH program.

Regardless of the press releases the translation is something along the lines of….”due to inflation and the fact that we want to add pre election tax cutting giveaways to next months budget we have decided to further delay the NMH program to use the allocated funding to plug a little bit more of the black hole in the equipment budget.

P.S.
The NMH program is the next administrations problem now as once again there is no money left.”

It’s amazing Mr Cartlidge managed to keep a straight face.

Well they did start trying to replace Puma in about 1990….

[new guy]

You can't make this stuff up....
The way they wrote this it makes it seem like the requirement is for 5 helicopters

[Clive F]

Well they did start trying to replace Puma in about 1990….

Even earlier! AST.404, the combined Wessex and Puma replacement goes back to the early 80s.

What's amusing is that Black Hawk, one of the original contenders (then to be built by Short Brothers), is still in the running for NMH.

[bobp]

So an invitation to negotiate and not a invitation to tender = kick this down the road for two years minimum.

[Little J]

The way they wrote this it makes it seem like the requirement is for 5 helicopters

You mean it isn't???

[Ron5]

If it is true that the services are overwhelmingly in favor of the Black Hawk, and assuming that's based on real objective data (not sentiment), it would be a total disgrace to select one of the other offerings.

And yes, even if it goes against the industrial strategy. All offerings are basically building helicopters from European made kits with a few token British bits thrown in. So actual long term benefits to UK industry are questionable.

PS Thatcher was correct, Westlands should have gone to Sikorsky and Puma should have stayed French.

[SD67]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

[SD67]

Heretical thought here - should we be buying ANY non-marinised helicopters from here on in? Given the pretty clear tilt to an expeditionary CONOPs. Where exactly is an Army-only helicopter going to be used? BAOR doesn't exist anymore.
The USMC don't operate Blackhawk. Or Chinook. Or Apache.

I'd put money on the can being kicked down the road till 2025 when the new SDSR will have its say

Very interesting speech by Shadow SOS at Policy Exchange - lots of emphasis on "Joint by Design"

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1vAGRvLmZVrGl

[SW1]

Heretical thought here - should we be buying ANY non-marinised helicopters from here on in? Given the pretty clear tilt to an expeditionary CONOPs. Where exactly is an Army-only helicopter going to be used? BAOR doesn't exist anymore.
The USMC don't operate Blackhawk. Or Chinook. Or Apache.

I'd put money on the can being kicked down the road till 2025 when the new SDSR will have its say

Very interesting speech by Shadow SOS at Policy Exchange - lots of emphasis on "Joint by Design"

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1vAGRvLmZVrGl

Depended what you mean by marinised. Chinooks around the world including in the US have been to sea quite a bit for example.

The problem with the helicopter question when we tried to take a big overview look it quickly got binned because we weren’t wanting to lock in budgets to helicopters to penny packs approach was taken.

But you can never have enough helicopters and vital if you’re really taking about expeditionary (ie no ports, road, airstrips and no contractors to maintain your vehicles in the rear).

You will get into a big bun fight quite quickly over the direction of your force is going because a finite budget can only be taken really properly in one direction.

[Poiuytrewq]

Heretical thought here - should we be buying ANY non-marinised helicopters from here on in? Given the pretty clear tilt to an expeditionary CONOPs. Where exactly is an Army-only helicopter going to be used? BAOR doesn't exist anymore.
The USMC don't operate Blackhawk. Or Chinook. Or Apache.

I'd put money on the can being kicked down the road till 2025 when the new SDSR will have its say

Very interesting speech by Shadow SOS at Policy Exchange - lots of emphasis on "Joint by Design"

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1vAGRvLmZVrGl

Depended what you mean by marinised. Chinooks around the world including in the US have been to sea quite a bit for example.

The problem with the helicopter question when we tried to take a big overview look it quickly got binned because we weren’t wanting to lock in budgets to helicopters to penny packs approach was taken.

But you can never have enough helicopters and vital if you’re really taking about expeditionary (ie no ports, road, airstrips and no contractors to maintain your vehicles in the rear).

You will get into a big bun fight quite quickly over the direction of your force is going because a finite budget can only be taken really properly in one direction.

Whatever we buy, it must be deployable in a maritime environment, we only have 25 HC4's, so we must be able to deploy and operate from Carriers with the new Medium helicopter.

It has to be marinised in respect of having shipboard
compatible avionics and tie down points.

Stability on a pitching deck is another important requirement .

[SW1]

It has to be marinised in respect of having shipboard
compatible avionics and tie down points.

Our Merlin’s didn’t meet that requirement with all our ships……

[mrclark303]

It has to be marinised in respect of having shipboard
compatible avionics and tie down points.

Our Merlin’s didn’t meet that requirement with all our ships……

Merlins don't have shipboard compatible avionics or tie down points???

[Ron5]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.