Its at least more beneficial then buying a complete aircraft made from a kit in Poland.Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Can blame the perfidious dog murderer, Heseltine for that....
Not to delve too deeply into alt-history, but feel Sikorsky would have been a far better long-time partner for Westland. Lots of success in the past, particularly Wessex and Sea King. Carry that on with a WS-70 Black Hawk and (jumping into the deep end here) eventually replacing Chinook with a CH-53 variant.
Could even see a circumstance where S-92 is strangled in the cradle by a civil focused AW101 variant, possibly with more powerful twin engines from P&W.
On a related note. I only realised yesterday that Boeing is part of the Airbus H175M team... curious bedfellows.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on GoshawkRon5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
parts created elsewhere.... Not heard of GCAP,Typhoon, F-35, Airbus, e.c.t?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Nobody is offering that.tomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 14:26Its at least more beneficial then buying a complete aircraft made from a kit in Poland.Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Your logic escapes me.SD67 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 15:01Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on GoshawkRon5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.
However, if Westland's gets an increased amount of "noble" work i.e. not just assembling kits, from an AW149 purchase, I would be very surprised. Pleasantly surprised.
As for exporting AW149's from the UK, that's a dead duck. Poland got that deal.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
My logic -even if it's a ckd operation (and it won't be) it is still localising support and maintenance, which is 70% of lifetime cost. And frankly I'd rather import from Poland than the US at the moment - shorter supply chain and they're a good customer for UK PLC.Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26Your logic escapes me.SD67 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 15:01Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on GoshawkRon5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 13:50I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.SD67 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:08 Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.
IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.
However, if Westland's gets an increased amount of "noble" work i.e. not just assembling kits, from an AW149 purchase, I would be very surprised. Pleasantly surprised.
As for exporting AW149's from the UK, that's a dead duck. Poland got that deal.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
duhtomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:43What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
UK Research and Innovation, part of BIS, has a 25 billion GBP budget over the next 3 years.
Surely some of that could be tipped into productionising UN sovereign defence technologies, or at least making up some of the cost deta
Surely some of that could be tipped into productionising UN sovereign defence technologies, or at least making up some of the cost deta
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?Ron5 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 13:21duhtomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:43What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 22:55So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?Ron5 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 13:21duhtomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:43What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.
Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.
Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
"Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick."Ron5 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 10:54No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 22:55So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?Ron5 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 13:21duhtomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:43What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.
Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.
Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.
Absolutely spot on.........
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Pity none of the contenders went for a full Union Flag paint scheme... Seems to have worked in the past.
Suspect if Black Hawk was to be excluded, it would have been easy to set an arbitrary troop capacity requirement that it couldn't meet, but the others could. Conversely, if the powers that be wanted it, then the AceHawk offer was pretty compelling and competitive. More than a big shed in Gosport.
Can't help but wonder if it's solely there as a stalking horse. Afterwards can be pointed to as proof of how good AW149 or H-175M is:
"...it even beat Black Hawk, now look at that rotor hub...
Why, yes my beloved Sheikh the bearings inside was carefully fabricated in Somerset (unlike every other part, including the "Made in the UK" labels, which were built in Cascina Costa di Samarate).
How impressive is that?....."
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
You convinced memrclark303 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 14:53"Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick."Ron5 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 10:54No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 22:55So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?Ron5 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2024, 13:21duhtomuk wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:43What Ajax exports?Ron5 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:33Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.SW1 wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:26 I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.
“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.
Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”
For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.
After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.
Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.
Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.
Absolutely spot on.........
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
The Forces are very clearly in favor of BH so no way anyone could leave it off the short list without a riot.Jensy wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 15:27Pity none of the contenders went for a full Union Flag paint scheme... Seems to have worked in the past.
Suspect if Black Hawk was to be excluded, it would have been easy to set an arbitrary troop capacity requirement that it couldn't meet, but the others could. Conversely, if the powers that be wanted it, then the AceHawk offer was pretty compelling and competitive. More than a big shed in Gosport.
Can't help but wonder if it's solely there as a stalking horse. Afterwards can be pointed to as proof of how good AW149 or H-175M is:
"...it even beat Black Hawk, now look at that rotor hub...
Why, yes my beloved Sheikh the bearings inside was carefully fabricated in Somerset (unlike every other part, including the "Made in the UK" labels, which were built in Cascina Costa di Samarate).
How impressive is that?....."
I did read a Chatham Rule comment (sorry can't remember where) by some MoD guy at the presser that said the DSIS wasn't the be all and end all for this competition. Seeing that BH is the weakest in that area, could possibly be a good sign.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.
They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Regardless of the design that is eventually chosen, how can you have a coherent industrial strategy with so few units?
If HMG was really serious about an industrial strategy they would transfer all Wildcat AH1 to RN and increase the NMH order to around 75.
The RAF has been slashed so much now that economies of scale simply don’t exist anymore and until airframe numbers start to rise again unit, maintenance and upgrade costs are going to continue to be eye-wateringly expensive.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 23:42Regardless of the design that is eventually chosen, how can you have a coherent industrial strategy with so few units?
If HMG was really serious about an industrial strategy they would transfer all Wildcat AH1 to RN and increase the NMH order to around 75.
The RAF has been slashed so much now that economies of scale simply don’t exist anymore and until airframe numbers start to rise again unit, maintenance and upgrade costs are going to continue to be eye-wateringly expensive.
As to your wider point it should be seen as batch 1 buy, when Merlin is replaced we order batch 2 variant, when the coast guard need new helicopter department of transport buy a variant ect ect ect. That would the idea of an industrial strategy you need to start the process somewhere, there is always excuses and special pleading not to.
We operate over 200 helicopter below chinook, it’s the fact we do penny pack right left and centre we get less value. Aerospace is an expensive business but you get better outcomes if you keep the design integration and test in country .
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
It’s highly unlikely the NMH contract will be awarded before the GE so there is still time to crystallise a longer term strategy before SDSR2025.
• Maximising Chinook numbers makes sense provided the costs remain sensible.
• Transferring all Wildcat across to RN makes sense as the Army never wanted them and RN will need them if the surface fleet is to grow.
• The Merlin’s are going to give great service to RN so no need for any changes there.
• The Puma (and Wildcat) replacements are the only area that needs a rethink. It’s not clear that any of the options on the table are suitable for a universal airframe to form the foundation of a multi tranche procurement strategy going forward.
Therefore without a viable alternative, is groping around for a long term industrial strategy based upon an airframe that doesn’t currently exist just more unnecessary procrastination?
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