Gibraltar

Discuss current, historical or potential future deployments, as well the defence of the UK's overseas interests.
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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by GibMariner »

Picardo says ‘no’ as Spain pitches joint sovereignty at UN
Gibraltar will never barter its sovereignty in exchange for EU access after Brexit, Chief Minister Fabian Picardo told the UN Fourth Committee yesterday, rebutting a formal offer of “co-sovereignty” from Spain.

He made the statement just minutes after Spain’s ambassador to the UN, Román Oyarzun Marchesi, outlined Spain’s proposal for joint sovereignty to a packed committee room in the UN headquarters in New York.

Sr Oyarzun said Brexit would lead to “a radical shift” in Gibraltar’s relations with Spain, but also a “problem of the first order” for the Rock’s economy and that of the Campo de Gibraltar.

He said Spain’s joint sovereignty proposal represented “a solution” to Brexit and “a good deal” for Gibraltar and the Campo.

The Spanish diplomat received an immediate and robust response from the Chief Minister, who made clear Gibraltar’s sovereignty was not up for discussion.

Mr Picardo reminded the committee that 98% of Gibraltarians had rejected joint sovereignty in 2002 and that this would never change.

He added that Spain would “…never get its hands on our Rock, whether the claim is laced with threats or garnished with benefits.”

Mr Picardo told the meeting that the economic benefits Spain said could flow from joint sovereignty “…could flow today if Spain simply respected our choice not to be Spanish.”

The Chief Minister also said the fact that Spain had ceded the Rock in perpetuity over 300 years ago presented it with “an insurmountable legal obstacle” in its sovereignty aspirations.

Mr Picardo highlighted the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport in the GFA/FIFA case, the first time an international court had considered Spain’s territorial sovereignty claims.

The court dismissed legal arguments that Gibraltar was a disputed territory that should therefore be barred from joining FIFA.

“This seminal decision serves as a reminder that, for as long as the international community continues to value the stability of internationally recognised boundaries, Spain’s expansionist, territorial claim is doomed to fail,” Mr Picardo said.

BREXIT BACKDROP

Yesterday’s session in New York unfolded against the backdrop of the UK’s forthcoming withdrawal from the EU, which Spain has sought to link to its sovereignty case.

In a statement at the start of the meeting, Sr Oyarzun set out his government’s view that Brexit should strengthen the UN’s resolve to push for a bilateral agreement between the UK and Spain over Gibraltar.

The position presented yesterday at the UN reflected the content of a letter Spain sent to EU members last week outlining a joint sovereignty proposal which, according to the acting Spanish Government, would allow Gibraltar to retain access to the EU.

“We would like to reach an agreement with the United Kingdom on a joint sovereignty system which would enable Gibraltar to stay in the EU, and based on the recognition of as broad a self-government as possible – which is compatible with Spain’s constitutional system – and on an advantageous personal status for Gibraltarians, which could include dual nationality,” Sr Oyarzun told the meeting.

Sr Oyarzun, who said Spain would “never relinquish its just claim”, urged Gibraltar to study the Spanish offer and added: “It is not a question of imposing anything on anyone.”
http://chronicle.gi/2016/10/picardo-say ... nty-at-un/

dmereifield
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by dmereifield »

Sad to see 85 job losses. Seems counter intuitive on the grand scheme of things, post Brexit, we should be demonstrating our commitment to Gibraltar by increasing funding and support, not laying people off. Just as we should be increasing overall defence spending to show our commitment to stay internationally engaged and outward looking

zanahoria
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by zanahoria »

Agreed. I understand money is tight everywhere, but can't understand why maintaining the status quo isn't the absolute minimum outcome for Gibraltar.

dmereifield
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by dmereifield »

If we can't afford it from the MoD budget, there is at least a strong case for using the International Development budget to provide infrastructure spending, research grants, supporting education programmes, healthcare etc in the overseas territories, including Gibraltar. The precedent seems to have been set with the airport funding for St Helena. Priti Patel is being quite strong on ensuring that all spends are in the national interest - these types of spending programmes certainly would be. Much of the infrastructure spending (ports, airports etc) could be beneficial from a military point of view.
We could also reap some financial benefits here in the UK if we fund research projects that are mutually beneficial, fund foreign exchange placements in the UK etc. Oops, going a bit off topic now....

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Diamond & HMS Scott in Gibraltar


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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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arfah wrote:Has the Kuznetsov task group passed through the Straits yet?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/725 ... dock-Ceuta
The task group supposedly passed through the strait early this morning. The tanker Sergey Osipov can be tracked via AIS every now and then, last active leaving Spanish waters around Ceuta at 07:27 GMT, but did not stop there.

2 vessels from the task group were supposedly stopping at Ceuta, but the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they were "reviewing" the requests of the Russian Navy due to concerns from allies and the Russian Navy itself.

Probably nothing to do with some elements of the Spanish media noting the hypocrisy of the frigate Almirante Juan de Borbón (F102) (recently took part in Joint Warrior and currently SNMG1 flagship) and oiler Cantabria (A15) being tasked with shadowing the Kuznetsov task group while allowing units of said task group to refuel at Ceuta.

Canadian frigate Charlottetown (FFH 339), currently part of SNMG2 TU.02 was reportedly spotted in the strait too.

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Diamond departed Gibraltar on Sunday, returning to the UK after a short deployment to the Med.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by bobp »

Nice picture thanks for sharing.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by arfah »

Thank you GM!
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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Echo patrolled Gib waters yesterday evening:

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Sabre ready for fresh duties on the Rock

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Being lowered back into Gibraltar harbour is one of the two fast patrol boats which help safeguard the waters around the Rock.

HMS Sabre was hauled out of the Med for five weeks for her annual survey/refit (it usually takes six, but thanks to the skill and depth of experience of local firm Bolaños and the engineers of the RN Gibraltar Squadron, they finished the overhaul a week early).

The work carried out on the 23-year-old boat included re-painting and cleaning of the hull to improve her speed through the water (sadly the shark’s teeth once painted on her bow have long since gone) and an overhaul of her two MAN V10 diesel engines which power the 24-tonne boat through territorial waters (and occasionally beyond) at speeds of up to 32kts (36mph).

While she was out of the water, sister HMS Scimitar was patrolling around Gib (plus the squadron’s RIBs, and civilian police craft) and escorting visiting British and Allied warships – including HMS Daring, Diamond and Bulwark – into and out of the naval base.

“I’m really pleased to see Sabre returning to the water ahead of schedule,” said her CO Lt Tom Lindsey. “Our engineering team, together with Bolaños, have worked hard to ensure that she is in the best possible condition to keep up the high operational tempo required in and around British Gibraltar Territorial Waters.”

With Sabre’s return RNGS is back to full strength in preparation for an upcoming deployment, ceremonial duties and Operational Sea Training at the end of the year.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... n-the-rock

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Armed Forces Minister Mike Penning Visits Gibraltar
The Minister of State for the Armed Forces, Mike Penning, arrived in Gibraltar today to conduct a familiarisation visit of British Forces Gibraltar.

This is Mr Penning’s first visit to Gibraltar since taking up his appointment in July this year.

As part of his programme he will visit a number of areas within the Command and call upon His Excellency the Governor and Commander in Chief and the Chief Minister.
http://www.yourgibraltartv.com/politics ... -gibraltar

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Protest underway today outside the naval base and The Convent over MoD job cuts:





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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Armed Forces Minister Mike Penning describes Gibraltar as a "massively significant base", confirms HMS Queen Elizabeth will visit Gibraltar, possibly by November 2017 but "certainly by Easter of 2018".

http://chronicle.gi/2016/11/armed-force ... led-times/

“Queen Elizabeth, the new aircraft carrier, will be here,”

“She will moor in Gibraltar.”

Will be interesting to see when the time comes if the carrier comes alongside or remains at anchor in the bay. So far, it's not been made public whether any dredging will be required for the carrier to enter the harbour and berth at the naval base.

Meanwhile, questions remain about whether the ever-shrinking MoD footprint in Gibraltar will even be able to support the carrier.

Will also be interesting to see whether US Navy surface vessels will once again visit Gibraltar after the Obama administration is gone.

"Massively significant" indeed.

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by GibMariner »

Remembrance service aboard HMS Bulwark East of Suez, led by Gibraltarian Father Charles Bruzon:

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https://twitter.com/HMSBulwark/status/7 ... 5492922368

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Spanish research vessel ANGELES ALVARINO incurring in Gib waters for the last couple of days, ignoring RN requests to leave:



Navy challenges Spanish research vessel in Gibraltar waters
Spanish state research vessel has been entering British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW) throughout the afternoon.

The Royal Navy read warnings to the Angeles Alvariño and shadowed her as she moved slowly through local waters on the Bay side, out from the Detached Mole. GBC understands warnings have also been read to the Guardia Civil. asking it not to enter Gibraltar waters.

Earlier this afternoon, after heading north into Spanish waters, she returned into local waters west of the runway. Eventually, the Guardia Civil also turned up and escorted the survey vessel into Spanish waters.

Last year the British government protested to the Spanish authorities “at a senior level” after a Royal Navy RHIB was struck by a survey probe dropped by the Angeles Alvariño. Eye-witness accounts suggest that no probes were dropped this time.

The Convent says it's investigating an incident and monitoring the situation but has, as yet, not confirmed an incursion.
Image
Very close to shore.

Back at it again this morning, RN & RGP attempting to prevent the vessel from launching a probe.

Follows incident on Wednesday where Spanish Navy OPV Infanta Elena incurred into British waters off the east side of the Rock:


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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Royal Navy fires flares at Spanish vessel in Gibraltar
The Royal Navy was forced to fire flares at a Spanish research vessel after it strayed into British Gibraltar territorial waters.

HMS Sabre gave the warning to Angeles Alvarino after attempts to contact it by radio failed.

The research vessel, which is investigating the geological risks to the seabed, left British waters after the flares were fired.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The Royal Navy challenges all unlawful maritime incursions into British Gibraltar territorial waters (BGTW).

"We back this up by making formal diplomatic protests to the Spanish government."

Gibraltar chief minister Fabian Picardo said he had been in contact with Commander of British Forces, Commodore Mike Walliker.

He said: "I have discussed all the tactical decisions taken and am satisfied that they have been designed to demonstrate untrammelled sovereignty jurisdiction and control over BGTW.

"I congratulate the Royal Navy for the work they have undertaken so far in very challenging circumstances in light of the reckless disregard for safety displayed by the official Spanish vessels involved.

"Diplomatic and political action must now support the excellent work undertaken by the navy personnel with limited resources."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... gibraltar/

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Image from: http://www.yourgibraltartv.com/politics ... rch-vessel

Edit: HMS Scott departed Gib this morning, headed towards the Spanish research vessel, which has turned south to leave British waters. HMS Sabre, RN RHIB and police launches still pursuing despite worsening weather conditions.

Edit 2:

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by GibMariner »

RFA Mounts Bay returned to Gibraltar early this morning:


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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by GibMariner »

Jake1992 wrote:Are we thinking too big I terms of vessels like the rivers or P2000 ?
Could be that there looking at something more like the Mk6 patrol boats, they are larger faster and better armed with 2 x 12.5mm chain guns, lightly manned and can ever carry a rib if needed
Moving the conversation here as we're getting off-topic.

I wouldn't describe the P2000s as "thinking big", they're not much larger than the Scimitars and not as capable in some ways.

In my opinion yes, something like that would be better suited for the squadron's stated roles of force protection for visiting warships and maritime security patrols in BGTW, which the Scimitars no longer seem adequate for. With HMS Queen Elizabeth expected to visit at some point in the next few years, I'd be surprised if they went for something less capable than there already is.

A River OPV would be more of a presence ship, while required (5 RN warship visits, no NATO or allied warship visits and 13 Spanish Navy incursions into BGTW so far in 2017), I find it doubtful that the FCO will allow a cock-waving contest with Spain even post-Brexit, and it would be a waste of RN resources when they will be more needed in home waters. Fast interceptor type patrol boats would still likely be required.

Image

If defending BGTW was actually taken seriously in Whitehall, stationing a couple Wildcat with (future) Martlet & Sea Venom could be a more effective deterrent (and possibly cheaper).
ArmChairCivvy wrote:May be we will do a straight swap (2 for 2 ;) ) with Trinidad & Tobago? The two boats manned would take 24 crew:
"The craft achieved more than 40kt in speed and small tactical diameter and short crash stop distance. The noise levels inside the vessel are lower, compared with those of similar patrol boats.
Optional weapon capabilities

The boats can be equipped with three general-purpose machine guns and one 20mm cannon."

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... trol-boat/
IMO something like that or (armed) Damen Stan patrol vessels might not be out of the realm of possibility - perhaps as part of a larger purchase to enhance the Border Force post-Brexit? One can dream...

The Lt Cmdr stated they'd be replaced in two years so if he's correct then that would imply something off the shelf or a buying something second-hand?

We'll have to wait and see.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

GibMariner wrote:The Lt Cmdr stated they'd be replaced in two years
Would we have one or two River1s over the required number by then, to head across the Pond (the demo tour has already been undertaken; the previous "all-weather" OPVs for T&T ended up in Brazil, instead. And the tours always emphasise that local CG staff are being trained... but for what vessels - just boats?)

Oops - pure speculation at this stage :) .
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by GibMariner »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
GibMariner wrote:The Lt Cmdr stated they'd be replaced in two years
Would we have one or two River1s over the required number by then, to head across the Pond (the demo tour has already been undertaken; the previous "all-weather" OPVs for T&T ended up in Brazil, instead. And the tours always emphasise that local CG staff are being trained... but for what vessels - just boats?)

Oops - pure speculation at this stage :) .
HMS Severn OSD - 2017
HMS Mersey OSD - 2019
HMS Clyde OSD - 2019
HMS Tyne OSD - Unknown
(Source: http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... 4-18/71203)

HMS Forth ISD - 2018
HMS Medway ISD - 2019
HMS Trent ISD - 2019
HMS Tamar ISD - 2021
HMS Spey ISD - 2021
(Source: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... s-is-named)

"Over the required number" lol, this is the Royal Navy we're talking about! Presumably there won't be 6 active OPVs in 2019 at the same time.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

GibMariner wrote:HMS Severn OSD - 2017
HMS Mersey OSD - 2019
HMS Clyde OSD - 2019

HMS Forth ISD - 2018
HMS Medway ISD - 2019
HMS Trent ISD - 2019
Quite agree, hence where will the first three of the old ones make their way. A useful "part-exchange" currency?
- of course, HMS Clyde is not one of the first three, but medevac as an extra (with a helo available, when required) can be quite attractive to anyone with lots of spread-out islands)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Interesting series of events, not sure if this will be reported on or swept under the rug and forgotten.

Yesterday, the French Navy's mine warfare experimentation vessel THETIS (A785) incurred in Gibraltar waters on its way to Algeciras, flying a Spanish courtesy flag, ignored HMS Sabre's requests to state intentions. HMS Enterprise was in the Strait as the leader of SNMCMG2 but did not get involved or stop off at Gibraltar, as do most Royal Navy vessels these days. The Convent is "investigating reports". Subsequently there was an incursion by a Spanish customs vessel and lengthy queues to get out of Gibraltar this afternoon.

Image

http://www.gbc.gi/news/convent-investig ... tered-bgtw


Follows similar recent incidents with an Italian coastguard helicopter and I believe a French coastguard vessel and helicopter incurring (on Frontex missions I believe).

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AstuteAssassin
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by AstuteAssassin »

Probably be brushed under the carpet. At least we know what France's position under Macron is.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Gibraltar

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:A useful "part-exchange" currency?
- of course, HMS Clyde is not one of the first three, but medevac as an extra (with a helo available, when required) can be quite attractive to anyone with lots of spread-out islands)
A repeat of my "sales talk" for the bigger states in the general Caribbean area. And talking about things headed for the area, Sir(?) Humphrey on his blog highlighted the usefulness of loading up in GIB on the way
"HMS OCEAN will also be deploying with Chinook helicopters – several are heading down now to deploy to the ship for the transit. This simple statement also helps tell a great story about how swept up the UK is – for most countries the idea of flying a large air force helicopter from home to another country then embarking on a naval platform to deploy to the other side of the world to do disaster relief with NGOs and the Army"
- I wonder if Spain is sticking to their funny games about overflight rights, when there is some urgency to get "stuff" over there and the Chinooks to help to deliver it?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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