Hopefully no more major issues...
Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
How long do the reliability trials last? From memory the Warrior trials took close to two years although Covid may have delayed them.
Are we looking at 2024/25 before we get to completion?
Was production halted on the tanks or is GDLS completing the remaining hulls in the hope the QC improvements and upgrades will be sufficient to get Ajax over the line. I can't see the legacy vehicles being able to go beyond 2025 which is why I think there will be a big push to transition as soon as possible.
Are we looking at 2024/25 before we get to completion?
Was production halted on the tanks or is GDLS completing the remaining hulls in the hope the QC improvements and upgrades will be sufficient to get Ajax over the line. I can't see the legacy vehicles being able to go beyond 2025 which is why I think there will be a big push to transition as soon as possible.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Interesting that there is no mention of the issues that caused the halting of further trials and how they may have been fixed. But it does look like Ajax will remain and enter Army service at some point. I wonder how much of a hit GDUK will have taken over this assuming the MoD stuck to the proviso that no new money would be spent and that all 500+ vehicles were to be delivered under the cost of the contract.
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Seems like the gun has also been fixed, and it can now fire on the move against a moving target.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
That was always a simple fix. It was simply a difference to the French implementation.
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Its "completed user validation trials" and "All aspects of these characteristics are fully understood and compliant with the Ajax design and safety requirements" so have they sorted the issues or moved the goal posts?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
How do you move the goalposts when they're written in law?
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Sound like it is off the chopping block then. Let's hope these fixes property resolved the issues and not a sticking plaster to prevent the embarrassment of cancelling a £5bn contract after the money has been spent.
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5632
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Well with Ajax going ahead the 3rd Division will have over 1700 new or upgraded vehicles coming
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Not sure how did you get to that number. Also lot depends on future unit organisations. With new restructure, the Royal Dragoon Guards, for example, will have less than half number of Ajax, compared to number of Scimitars it operated, with only one cavalry recce squadron, although somewhat bigger than the standard one. What I would really want to know, how many frontline/combat vehicles will it have in the end.Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 09:20 Well with Ajax going ahead the 3rd Division will have over 1700 new or upgraded vehicles coming
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5632
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Sorry but that is ridicules. Imagine if someone count all armoured vehicles in the US Army, divide that number with number of armored and mechanized division and claim that is number of vehicles per division. That is false. 3rd Division will have two armoured regiment, with total of 116 tanks, not all 148, just like one third of all M270A2 will be under TA Army and even then, not all of them in combat units but also in training and reserve. Same for Boxer, of which only 623 you can count for now, as that is number ordered so far. Just because there are funds for 1100, it does not mean that Army will end up with that number. Also Boxers will probably go to number of units which would not be directly under 3rd Division. And question is how much Ajax will be there, as I mentioned, RDG will only have some 20 to 24 Ajax (compared to 48 Scimitars) with number of other variants like Ares and other. Question is will other armoured cavalry regiments be structured in the same way. Until there is a full orbat of the Division with new equipment, statements like this are pointless.Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 11:28 Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division
With just two armoured brigades, 3rd Division, would actually be weaker than its counterparts in almost all other major NATO country, which usually have three brigades.
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5632
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve unitssol wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 12:29Sorry but that is ridicules. Imagine if someone count all armoured vehicles in the US Army, divide that number with number of armored and mechanized division and claim that is number of vehicles per division. That is false. 3rd Division will have two armoured regiment, with total of 116 tanks, not all 148, just like one third of all M270A2 will be under TA Army and even then, not all of them in combat units but also in training and reserve. Same for Boxer, of which only 623 you can count for now, as that is number ordered so far. Just because there are funds for 1100, it does not mean that Army will end up with that number. Also Boxers will probably go to number of units which would not be directly under 3rd Division. And question is how much Ajax will be there, as I mentioned, RDG will only have some 20 to 24 Ajax (compared to 48 Scimitars) with number of other variants like Ares and other. Question is will other armoured cavalry regiments be structured in the same way. Until there is a full orbat of the Division with new equipment, statements like this are pointless.Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 11:28 Well what we know now is there is funding for 1100 Boxer's , 589 Ajax , 148 Challenger 3 & 61 M270A2 this is without new SP Guns and more of the first 4 which is wanted but not unfunded now most if not all of this must be heading to the heavy units in the 3rd division
With just two armoured brigades, 3rd Division, would actually be weaker than its counterparts in almost all other major NATO country, which usually have three brigades.
You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Well then, tell we how all those vehicles will be distributed? How many Ajax will have every armoured cavalry regiment and where all "1100" Boxers will go?Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 19:54 The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve units
You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5632
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehiclessol wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 20:00Well then, tell we how all those vehicles will be distributed? How many Ajax will have every armoured cavalry regiment and where all "1100" Boxers will go?Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 19:54 The last time I looked we only had one Heavy division with 1 x Deep fires BCT and 2 Armoured BCT's so unless you know of any other Medium/ Heavy formations that will have Boxer , Ajax , CH-3 or M270A2 out side of the 3rd Division please let me know if not all these vehicles will end up in the 3rd at some time weather it is with full time or reserve units
You would note that all reserve units for the 3rd are lodged under the 3rd so you can pick eggs out of the basket only to have to put them back
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
3rd Div will have as much vehicles as it is defined by its orbat or as much as it could effectively operate. I have no idea how Army will distribute those 500+ Ajax family vehicles. Armoured cavalry regiment currently has some 66 CRV(T) (well Warriors now instead of Scimitars) and some 520 men. So four ACRs in 3rd Division will take just half of all ordered vehicles. Some will go to artillery units, some possibly to two armored regiments, some even might end up with engineers but it is hard to see how all of them would be employed. Same for Boxer. And all those vehicles which are not deployed over various units of 3rd Div, will not go with it, and will not effectively be part of it and so no, 3rd Div will not have all those Ajax and Boxer and other vehicles, it will have as much as it need to have, and its orbat is hardly showing need for all those vehicles. It is like saying that all vehicles located at BATUS were part of 3rd Division, at the time when it become the only UK armoured division just because of it and thus all armoured vehicles are under its command.Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 23:27 This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehicles
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Ajax was ordered a decade ago and the army has shrunk considerably since then.
The contractor likely told the MOD they had to place an order for over 500 to get any kind of economies of scale from such a bespoke order. For all of the commentators that crack up about a scout vehicle being confused with an ifv, that's because the hull is based on an ifv packed with additional sensors for the recon role. With Warrior worn out and in need of replacement it seems bonkers that an ifv version was not included in the original order to bring it up to around 750 vehicles with 300 if them being ifvs with space for 6 dismounts.
It also should have been CV90 but I think everyone is sick of hearing that, let's hope the fixes on Ajax allow it to realise it's potential.
The contractor likely told the MOD they had to place an order for over 500 to get any kind of economies of scale from such a bespoke order. For all of the commentators that crack up about a scout vehicle being confused with an ifv, that's because the hull is based on an ifv packed with additional sensors for the recon role. With Warrior worn out and in need of replacement it seems bonkers that an ifv version was not included in the original order to bring it up to around 750 vehicles with 300 if them being ifvs with space for 6 dismounts.
It also should have been CV90 but I think everyone is sick of hearing that, let's hope the fixes on Ajax allow it to realise it's potential.
- These users liked the author BB85 for the post:
- wargame_insomniac
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
And yet how many CVR(T) and FV432 variants are still in use?
I guess that makes the Hippo BRV a MBT!
You may have heard of this small project called WCSP...
- These users liked the author RunningStrong for the post:
- Ron5
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5632
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Yes yes but with 589 Ajax and the Army wanting 1300 Boxer's where is all this kit going as we only have 1 heavy division it can't spill over into the 1st division or can it could the army be looking to make the 1st a Medium-light mechanised divisionsol wrote: ↑27 Dec 2022, 15:513rd Div will have as much vehicles as it is defined by its orbat or as much as it could effectively operate. I have no idea how Army will distribute those 500+ Ajax family vehicles. Armoured cavalry regiment currently has some 66 CRV(T) (well Warriors now instead of Scimitars) and some 520 men. So four ACRs in 3rd Division will take just half of all ordered vehicles. Some will go to artillery units, some possibly to two armored regiments, some even might end up with engineers but it is hard to see how all of them would be employed. Same for Boxer. And all those vehicles which are not deployed over various units of 3rd Div, will not go with it, and will not effectively be part of it and so no, 3rd Div will not have all those Ajax and Boxer and other vehicles, it will have as much as it need to have, and its orbat is hardly showing need for all those vehicles. It is like saying that all vehicles located at BATUS were part of 3rd Division, at the time when it become the only UK armoured division just because of it and thus all armoured vehicles are under its command.Tempest414 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 23:27 This is the point is in it all these Vehicles have been funded but why . Why so many Boxers and wider Ajax family but it could be a good Xmas challenge to place all those vehicles
Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)
Maybe some will go to ARRC or maybe the Army is silently trying to replace FV432 with Boxer, who knows. But if the Army ends with 1000+ Boxers and only 5 mechanised battalions, it will look ridicules. Even if every armoured vehicle in them is replaced with Boxer, it would still left more than half of total fleet for other things.Tempest414 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2022, 09:47 Yes yes but with 589 Ajax and the Army wanting 1300 Boxer's where is all this kit going as we only have 1 heavy division it can't spill over into the 1st division or can it could the army be looking to make the 1st a Medium-light mechanised division