Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[Spitfire9]

I'm thinking that Germany are not going to allow New typhoons to be sold to any new country, could be wrong but that's just the way it seems to be going,and unless some new government gets in I can't see that changing , like people have said lot's of times, thank goodness we not doing GCAP with them

Germany's next general election for the Bundestag is due October 2025.

Regarding Turkiye and Typhoon, Turkiye supports Hamas - an organisation proscribed in the UK. In early November Germany banned all support for Hamas:

... German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said she implemented a formal ban on activity by or in support of Hamas, which is already designated as a “terrorist” organisation in the country.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/ ... activities

Would it be so strange if Germany opposed supplying Typhoon to Turkiye? Hamas is also proscribed in the UK. Would it be so strange if UK opposed supplying Typhoon to Turkiye?

Another aspect: Turkiye could leave/be booted out of NATO in coming years and allies of the UK could end up facing Typhoon.

[SD67]

I'm thinking that Germany are not going to allow New typhoons to be sold to any new country, could be wrong but that's just the way it seems to be going,and unless some new government gets in I can't see that changing , like people have said lot's of times, thank goodness we not doing GCAP with them

Germany's next general election for the Bundestag is due October 2025.

Regarding Turkiye and Typhoon, Turkiye supports Hamas - an organisation proscribed in the UK. In early November Germany banned all support for Hamas:

... German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said she implemented a formal ban on activity by or in support of Hamas, which is already designated as a “terrorist” organisation in the country.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/ ... activities

Would it be so strange if Germany opposed supplying Typhoon to Turkiye? Hamas is also proscribed in the UK. Would it be so strange if UK opposed supplying Typhoon to Turkiye?

Another aspect: Turkiye could leave/be booted out of NATO in coming years and allies of the UK could end up facing Typhoon.

Yes it would be totally strange because Turkey is a NATO member and, (in theory) the only Secular Muslim country in the world. Hence why it's called TURKey, not The Ottoman Empire. And they are also Russia's oldest enemy and have been supplying Ukraine

So the obvious play here is to hug Turkey close. That's the logical strategy

The problem is Germany doesn't do strategy. They do sharing a currency with Greece and buying gas from Putin.

[SW1]

And have been refusing Sweden coming into nato. There’s a LOT of politics going on around this.

[SD67]

And have been refusing Sweden coming into nato. There’s a LOT of politics going on around this.

Ostpolitik never really ended, it just morphed into Gazprom, Nordstream etc

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

The german parliament approved the ECR pods for 15 Aircraft (most likely to be T4) - Saab/Helsing will be responsible for the delivery.

[Spitfire9]

Germany should adopt a more “flexible” policy on arms exports, the country’s defense minister said on Thursday.

“We need more open-minded policy and we need a change of strategy,” Boris Pistorius told a panel discussion at the Berlin Security Conference.

He stressed that the changes in international security environment makes it necessary for Germany to reconsider its strictly restrictive approach.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/german ... ys/3069283

How much say, though, does he have in who gets Eurofighter?

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

None.
Scholz decides in the end and he won't annoy the Greens because of such an irrelevant topic.

[SD67]

None.
Scholz decides in the end and he won't annoy the Greens because of such an irrelevant topic.

I have to agree, the Germans won't budge an inch and we need to clearly hold them responsible for damaging Thypoons last real export push before the partners go their seperate ways...

They have cost the other partners serious money and I hope the French are taking note...

Just how the French ( who will sell anything to anyone) can square this away with a German shrinking violet attitude is going to be interesting....

[SKB]

Can you do this in the German thread please? This thread is for the RAF Typhoon.

[NickC]

EDR magazine

December 14, 2023 – The Budget Committee of the German Bundestag has approved the purchase of new missiles for various weapon systems.

Eurofighter armament: Meteor is to receive an update

In order to maintain superiority in air combat into the 2040s, the Bundeswehr can also commission studies to update the Meteor air-to-air missile. The Air Force’s Eurofighters are armed with Meteor missiles. The fighter jet pilots can also use them to engage targets beyond their field of vision.

For example, possible adjustments to the radar homing head, the propulsion system, the data link and the warhead are now being analyzed for 34.9 million euros. The investigations are scheduled to begin next year and the reports on the adaptation options will be available in 2025. Five other European nations are involved in the project

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/germany-iris ... rocurement

[Spitfire9]

Will the RAF be basing more Typhoons in The Falklands if Argentina opts for F-16? Also offered are the Indian Tejas (a non-starter, I think, as all UK parts would need to replaced) and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 (also with the problem of an MB ejection seat which would need to be swapped for a Chinese one).

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/america ... argentina/

[new guy]

Will the RAF be basing more Typhoons in The Falklands if Argentina opts for F-16? Also offered are the Indian Tejas (a non-starter, I think, as all UK parts would need to replaced) and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 (also with the problem of an MB ejection seat which would need to be swapped for a Chinese one).

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/america ... argentina/

They are no issue.

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

[wargame_insomniac]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

Let's hope it's not too late and the French haven't got their foot in the door.

[Spitfire9]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

Let's hope it's not too late and the French haven't got their foot in the door.

Good for KSA to have Dassault in the frame. If an airline has a fleet of A320's and wants to expand its fleet, best thing to do is to ask Boeing for a quote for 737's, isn't it?

I guess Turkey will be hammering at Eurofighter's door again soon. Personally I see it remaining closed.

[Jensy]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

Let's hope it's not too late and the French haven't got their foot in the door.

Good for KSA to have Dassault in the frame. If an airline has a fleet of A320's and wants to expand its fleet, best thing to do is to ask Boeing for a quote for 737's, isn't it?

I guess Turkey will be hammering at Eurofighter's door again soon. Personally I see it remaining closed.

Not sure many airlines will be getting quotes on the current 737 MAX for a while but I get your point!

The German FM's argument for supplying Saudi is quite clever, citing Saudi support for Israel's security. Impossible to make that argument for Turkey under Erdogan.

Either the Turks will have to go beyond backing Swedish NATO membership, which probably involves a lot less backdoor deals with Russia, or go elsewhere for their interim fighter needs. They're definitely not getting F-35 any time soon.

[SD67]

TBH I don't give a damn about Turkey

But we've been selling fighters to KSA since the 60s. And their enemy, the Houthi, are right now holding global trade to ransom

[Phil Sayers]

The thing about Turkey is that objectively the rest of the major players in NATO have been a worse ally to them than they have been to NATO.

The root cause of much of the World's current problems with a belligerent Russia, Iran, China etc can be traced back to the lack of stomach to oust the Assad regime in the early stages of the Syrian Civil War (not that there is anything civil about it at all in either conduct or international participation) - in particular after they defied Obama's so called red line and proceeded to murder over 1,000 people with Sarin nerve gas, pointedly on the one year anniversary of that being declared a red line. It reeked of Western weakness and adversaries took note - Russia annexed Crimea and invaded the Donbas within a year and then set out to save the Assad regime a year later.

In those early years, Turkey had been correctly predicting a regional (probably turned out to be global what with the rise of far-right politics etc) catastrophe if the Assad regime were not consigned to the dustbin of history. Turkey therefore urged Western action (albeit can be criticised for not volunteering their troops for a significant ground action) but that met with the ostrich strategy from their key Western allies.

Then there was the rise of ISIS but rather than ally with the mainstream Sunni rebel groups (some of whom could be legitimately described as ISIS-lite themselves but were nevertheless bitter enemies of Daesh) Obama, correctly, concluded that allying with the YPG would be allying with the only group he could be fairly confident would follow orders to just fight ISIS rather than the Assad regime as well.

"Small" problem being that the YPG are very obviously a sister group, with very fluid membership crossover, of the PKK whose decades long campaign in Turkey has killed tens of thousands of people. How would we feel if the solution to fighting Al-Qaeda was explained to us as being creating a huge IRA controlled area on the NI border?

To be clear I have always supported the creation of a Kurdistan, abhor Erdogan's dictatorial approach and utterly condemn Turkey bombing civilian infrastructure in NE Syria. That does not however change that realistically Turkey is less to blame than ourselves for the strained relations - we allowed our own short-term expediency in ways to fight ISIS to be deemed more important than Turkey's long-term nat sec interests.

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

Let's hope it's not too late and the French haven't got their foot in the door.

It certainly isn't - there's Already an outcry by the German leftists.
At midnight between Sunday and Monday.
They wouldn't have publicly removed their Veto if the deal wasn't safe (why would they risk trouble for nothing then).
But there are 4 main reasons for this decision:

1) Support of Airbus
2) The Houthi-Problem (which might be solved by KSA in the end)
3) Giving KSA a treat for backing up Israel
4) Giving the UK sth - possibly to have an offramp if FCAS fails

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Germany allows the sale of Typhoons to KSA.
FINALLY
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien ... n-100.html

Let's hope it's not too late and the French haven't got their foot in the door.

Good for KSA to have Dassault in the frame. If an airline has a fleet of A320's and wants to expand its fleet, best thing to do is to ask Boeing for a quote for 737's, isn't it?

I guess Turkey will be hammering at Eurofighter's door again soon. Personally I see it remaining closed.

They might offer Turkey a deal - Sweden's membership for Typhoons. And Turkey would definitely take that deal.

[inch]

I'm not putting a damp Squibb on it but does KSA even want typhoon now ?,has Germany played a good game knowing that KSA will not buy typhoon now so are safe in saying ok we will allow the sales , wouldn't put it past them ,also my personal view is there's no chance of Germany wanting or buying into GCAP program ,it's either FCAS or F35A that's it , same with Spain ,they probably go with f35b aswell though, saves them lots of navy problems,and both might buy more typhoons if that happens

[SD67]

I'm pretty sure KSA still wants Typhoon (and Tempest for that matter). BAE are deeply embedded in the country industrially, economically. The Saudis have long memories.

There's also, hate to say it, the small matter that the Dassault family are Jewish and the company was Israel's main supplier for many years

[Timmymagic]

Reuters story...sanity finally prevails.

https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-w ... reddit.com

Reuters

TEL AVIV, Jan 7 (Reuters) - Germany is prepared to allow further deliveries of Eurofighter jets to Saudi Arabia, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said on Sunday.

Berlin halted arms sales to Saudi Arabia following the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz had pushed back against pressure to unblock delivery of Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia. His coalition partner, the Greens, had firmly opposed the move, pointing to human rights concerns and Saudi Arabia's role in the Yemen war.

"We do not see the German government opposing British considerations for more Eurofighters for Saudi Arabia," Baerbock, a Green politician, told reporters on a trip to Israel.

The Eurofighter project is a joint British, German, Italian and Spanish effort.

"The world, especially here in the Middle East, has become a completely different place since Oct. 7," she said, referring to the date Palestinian militant group Hamas attacked Israel.

[SD67]

It will be interesting to see the size of the order. A quick google shows the Saudis currently operating 80 F15C/Ds with an average age of 37 years. It could be substantial, especially given the threat situation.

Even 48 would lead nicely into GCAP, 8-12 per year from say 2025 plus support of German/Spanish follow ons

I've always thought Baerbock sounds very sensible

[Anthony58]

It will be interesting to see the size of the order. A quick google shows the Saudis currently operating 80 F15C/Ds with an average age of 37 years. It could be substantial, especially given the threat situation.

Even 48 would lead nicely into GCAP, 8-12 per year from say 2025 plus support of German/Spanish follow ons

I've always thought Baerbock sounds very sensible

Over the many years (feels like a lifetime) that this second Saudi tranche has been discussed there were mentions of both 48 and a maximum of 72. That was in a more benign security situation than now, particularly the growth in Iranian backed Houthi militancy in recent weeks and months.

Either way the KSA would become the second largest current user of the type, behind Germany and ahead of us.

Now if we really wanted to take advantage of this situation and buy the RAF a few dozen more..... ...maybe time to take licensed pilot Shapps up in a Tiffy and let him have a little fun.