German Armed Forces

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SW1
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 01 Mar 2022, 18:31
Lord Jim wrote: 01 Mar 2022, 16:55 We have more than enough tankers for our Fast Jet Fleet especially if we brought all out Voyagers into RAF service. The paltform itself though is unable to realise its full potential as it cannot carry cargo on its upper deck like previous RAF platform like the Tristar and VC-10 Tankers. Installing a cargo door should be easily done as the owners should see the benefit to their leasing opportunities having a dual role aircraft able to carry any combination of passengers and cargo.

I do think that we need to follow the French and German example and utilise the ability of the Atlas to carry out the AAR role. All A400s are plumbed for this role and simply need the AAR pods installed on the wings and some minor modifications to the electronics etc.. This could be phase one of bringing a number of Atlas into the SF support role, being able to refuel their helicopters as well as those of the 1st Aviation Brigade.

Back to Germany Proper though, I wonder what kit etc. the Bundeswehr will spend its money on after it covers the cost of bringing the units its has up to scratch, which is going to cost quite a bit. The Army seems to be heading in the right direction but does need more mobile GBAD with greater capabilities than their Stingers. They as well as other NATO Armies really need a 21st Century Gepard to compliment their SHORAD systems, Starstreak & LMM in our case. The German Army also needs the second batch of Pumas to replace the remaining Marders, and additional Boxers to replace more of the remaining M113 variants. I also think Germany need to revisit the idea of Territorial units like they had in the Cold War, though probably not as extensive. Having units to provide rear area security is even more applicable today then it was back in the 1970s and 80s.

The Air Force is also getting its act together especially if it actually goes ahead with the F-35 purchase. A combination of this and teh Typhoon is a world leading capability.
the contract on the A330 will not allow it however RAF A400 pilots have done some cross training in AAR they just can't do it in RAF air craft
That is not entirely how it’s portrayed, the contract with airtanker is for a set number of hours each year with exceptions for being on operations the clause is really around not trying to get out of that set number by using another type. You could use a400m tanker capabilities if your prepared to train it and use it in addition to what you contract from airtanker not in place of it.

LJ

Conversion to upper deck cargo is much more extensive than just putting a door in.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Timmymagic »

Been saying it for an age...

Germany to buy 35 F-35 for the nuclear mission...

Expect an additional order for Typhoon and (likely) Typhoon ECR soon....

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-03-14/

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Good thread from Gareth showing the likely route the Germans will take...

So a likely additional order of 50 Typhoon Tranche 4 and Typhoon ECR in the offing (I suspect they'll order more than 15 of those now with the increased budget).

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SW1
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Re: German Armed Forces

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Now Germany has gone for f35a for its nuclear role is it going to use American airforce tanker aircraft to get it to target or simply tell its pilots this is a one way jolly?

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Their role would be tactical rather than strategic.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Lord Jim wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 00:40 Their role would be tactical rather than strategic.
It’s a 1000 miles from Germany to Russia unless ur suggesting it’s dropping on Poland or the Baltic states.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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SW1 wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 07:45 It’s a 1000 miles from Germany to Russia unless ur suggesting it’s dropping on Poland or the Baltic states.
It was accepted that (tactical) Nukes could well be dropped on Germany to halt Warsaw Pact forces during Soviet times.

Poland is the new frontline, so could well suffer a similar fate.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Cooper wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 15:01
SW1 wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 07:45 It’s a 1000 miles from Germany to Russia unless ur suggesting it’s dropping on Poland or the Baltic states.
It was accepted that (tactical) Nukes could well be dropped on Germany to halt Warsaw Pact forces during Soviet times.

Poland is the new frontline, so could well suffer a similar fate.
But the was because Germany was separated with the Soviet Union controlling east Germany and half of Berlin.

While it may happen you would think you’d be looking a concentrations in Russia as there primary targets these days.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Cooper »

SW1 wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 15:08 But the was because Germany was separated with the Soviet Union controlling east Germany and half of Berlin.

While it may happen you would think you’d be looking a concentrations in Russia as there primary targets these days.
Nukes wouldn't have been dropped immediately, only if/when they overran conventional defences, so the nukes would have been dropped only when Warsaw Pact forces were deep into West Germany.

Bare in mind these weren't the huge hydrogen bombs in the megaton yields, but (relatively) small Kilotonne range, tactical battlefield nukes.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Cooper wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 15:13
SW1 wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 15:08 But the was because Germany was separated with the Soviet Union controlling east Germany and half of Berlin.

While it may happen you would think you’d be looking a concentrations in Russia as there primary targets these days.
Nukes wouldn't have been dropped immediately, only if/when they overran conventional defences, so the nukes would have been dropped only when Warsaw Pact forces were deep into West Germany.

Bare in mind these weren't the huge hydrogen bombs in the megaton yields, but (relatively) small Kilotonne range, tactical battlefield nukes.
these aircraft are coming from close to Bonn near the Luxembourg border would you want them to get further than over the eastern edge of Germany/ western Poland before they needed to refuel to make the return leg if there was one?

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Posted this elsewhere...but it does merit some consideration...think MBDA will be doing rather well out of Germany presently..

What will be interesting will be which munitions the German's will choose for their F-35 fleet. They've got 20bn EUR available from the 100bn EUR funding boost to spend on munitions (which gives you an idea how depleted German stocks are...). A lot will go on Heer munitions, a small amount for the Navy, some on SAM systems and maybe, just maybe some munitions for UCAV's..but they're going to need some for the F-35's and new build Typhoon...

They won't just be toting their B-61/12 all the time...

So the German Air Force weapons that are compatible with F-35...

AIM-120 Amraam (believe its B and C-7) - By the time F-35 arrives the B variant will be life expired and near obsolete however.

And errrr...thats it folks...they do also have Paveway II and LJDAM GBU-54 in stock for Tornado, but neither has been cleared for F-35, or appear to be on the list...they'll probably be retained for Typhoon.

I don't think the German's will go to the expense of getting IRIS-T or Taurus KEPD-350 integrated for a fleet of 30-35 aircraft. Current users of some of those systems have shown little interest in paying for it, so unless they club together to fund the integration effort and then join a very long list of weapons right at the end of the list. That means zero chance of any of them being integrated prior to 2030+ even if the decision was made today.

So the German's need a compatible WVR missile, they need a freefall guided munition and probably other munitions...

WVR Missile
- A choice of AIM-9X or ASRAAM Blk VI (also called CSP). - No idea what they'll pick, they favoured a more manoeuverable missile than either 9X or Asraam. But they did also manfacture 9L back in the day. They might pick 9X as its closer to IRIS-T or they may look for a complimentary capability with ASRAAM. ASRAAM being made by MBDA, and being compatible with Typhoon may swing it...

Freefall PGM
- You'd have to think a JDAM variant would be in the front position here given they already use GBU-54 LJDAM 1,000lb, but that isn't on the F-35 integration timeline... Another option is the GBU-12 as they already use Paveway variants, a 500lb LGB with GPS. Don't think it would take a lot to make GBU-12 compatible with Typhoon...but then that also means that Paveway IV from the UK becomes a possibility, with zero integration costs for Typhoon. It's already integrated with Typhoon and F-35...Or they might just buy new whichever JDAM are integrated on F-35 and leave it at that, they're a comparatively cheap munition to buy, but that means no moving target capability..

EDIT - Looks like they already have some GBU-12 in stock so this might be an easy decision.

Other Munitions
- Smaller munitions - Also on the cards I suspect. SDB1, SDB2 (Storm Breaker) or Spear. Possible that Spear might get the nod here as it will also be compatible with Typhoon and the Typhoon ECR concept was shown with Spear-EW mounted...
- SEAD/DEAD capability - The German's were developing Armiger, a ramjet powered ARM, a while ago. It got cancelled. But they like ARM's and need to replace HARM. They have ordered AARGM like Italy in small quantities, but like Italy they're in a bind, AARGM is not integrated on Typhoon or F-35. They're looking at Typhoon as the ECR replacement so it might be that they integrate AARGM in conjunction with Italy (AARGM is not integrated on F-35 and probably never will be as US interest seems to be on AARGM-ER) or Spear & Spear EW get the nod. But I wouldn't discount an AARGM-ER buy for F-35. They could also look at Meteor ARM variants (Both UK and MBDA are investigating this, but its unclear if it relates to the Meteor or AESA equipped JNAAM variant). Again compatibility with both fleets could swing it. Either way costly choices await them, either integrating AARGM with Typhoon for ECR or buying new weapons for F-35...no easy answers on this one.
- Longer ranged munitions - One of the lessons from Ukraine...but the current weapon (Taurus KEPD-350) is very unlikely to be integrated, which realistically leaves JSM and JASSM. Not sure what they'd pick here. JSM would give them a decent air launched AShM capability that they've lacked since Kormoran 2 was retired, for the Baltic (and outside of Marte-ER for Kuwait, no-one has shown any real interest in adding AShM to Typhoon). JASSM gives them serious land attack capability and range, with the promise of LRASM as well. Honestly no idea, bit of solidarity with Norway or go US..

Additional Munitions
They will get Meteor by default, c2027, as they're purchasing that, in not massive numbers, for Typhoon (I suspect that order will get a big boost presently) so it looks like they're well covered on the BVR missile front.

They could just got the easy route and procure all US weapons, but that leaves them with compatability problems with their main combat fleet of Typhoon in the most part and German defene procurement is a very political issue, they'll want some German involvement...
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Jdam »

Interesting, when will the Jerry's start getting their F-35? I wonder if it will line up some what with Meteor integration.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

They can probably get the first batch relatively quickly as building slots seem to be changing as nations funding fluctuates year on year.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Jdam wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 20:25 Interesting, when will the Jerry's start getting their F-35? I wonder if it will line up some what with Meteor integration.
It seems to be c2 years from order to production, but slots and delivery schedules are already taken up, and there is the obvious tortuous German contract negotiations to go through. The US has slowed some of its orders to free slots up though for other states. I reckon at the earliest they could see them in 2025, but realistically 2027 is probably closer to the mark. That ties in with Meteor and Spear integration and would allow them, just, to stand up a force to replace Tornado in the nuclear mission role prior to its retirement in 2030.
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Re: German Armed Forces

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Just to update the list of German weapons compatible with F-35...

It's come to my attention that the LJDAM they've got is the 500lb version, apparently this is on the F-35 integration pathway.

They're also down as buying $20m worth of GBU-12, a 500lb LGB with GPS. Essentially a US equivalent to Paveway IV (but a little less advanced).

Neither purchase is massive, the GBU-12 one in particular can't be for more than 100-150 weapons max (once you factor in test equipment, manuals, support etc.). To be honest I've no idea why you'd purchase both...essentially they do the same thing...

Either way the German's will need to increase stocks, but it looks like GBU-12 or LJDAM would be the front runners.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

:P Did they ever send those 5000 helmets to Ukraine?!

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Re: German Armed Forces

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SKB wrote: 22 Mar 2022, 15:42 Did they ever send those 5000 helmets to Ukraine?!
Yes, all 3 VW Transporter loads of them...

The Pz.3 and Stinger have gone. However, by all accounts the 2,700 Igla has turned into 500 Igla as the rest were seen as not viable. Still useful, but not as large as originally expected.

The other bit of news is that since those initial deliveries 3 weeks ago there apparently hasn't been any more....the German's cupboard really is bare I'm afraid. Suspect they may have allowed transfers of munitions from nations who received ex-GDR equipment now (Finland and Estonia).

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Whereas Sweden is going to provide another new batch of 5000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.

GO SWEDEN !!!!

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... ews-agency

( i guess Sweden thinks that if the Russians get a serious bloody nose in Ukraine - it is less likely to do anything against Finland and Sweden !? )

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Phil Sayers »

Germany are planning on sending another 2,000 Panzerfaust but haven't done so yet:

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/kon ... -99-643288

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Am I right in thinking that the Bundeswehr were going to modify their existing inventory of Panzerfaust 3 to a new standard and will now main buy new weapons as they transfer more of their inventory to the Ukraine? They are clearing out what East German weapons and ammunition they still retained, including the Strella MANPADS that they used for training as it was cheaper than using actual Stingers. The Ocelot SP SAM Vehicle based on the Weasel was designed for that option from the beginning.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Germany to buy 60 Chinook...not a huge surprise given the huge cost of CH-53K...

I think we need to buy some more Chinook now...can't have Germany being the largest non-US or European user...


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Re: German Armed Forces

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Would all 5,000 Ukraine-bound helmets fit inside the 60 Chinooks?! :mrgreen:
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by leonard »

Now is officiall the new F126 class frigate of the German Navy is now with its +10.500 tons in Admiral graf Spee pocketbattleship territory

Naval Analyses
@D__Mitch
The displacement of the F126 FFG will change to +10,500.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Simple fact is that all classes of ship/boat are getting bigger.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Timmymagic wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 18:22 JSM would give them a decent air launched AShM capability that they've lacked since Kormoran 2 was retired, for the Baltic (and outside of Marte-ER for Kuwait, no-one has shown any real interest in adding AShM to Typhoon). JASSM gives them serious land attack capability and range, with the promise of LRASM as well. Honestly no idea, bit of solidarity with Norway or go US..
Need to look 'under the surface' with that one... ie. the joint subs prgrm.

Relating to that there is a tube -aunched member about to join the NSM/JSM family - I do not know, though, whether it has the same high degree of commonality that exists between NSM/JSM.
- German navy operating in the Baltic w/o AShM support in some form is not a very viable idea as the place is brimming with those weapons (due to the short distances, also lots of shore-launched around)
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