German Armed Forces

[LordJim]

Are these for the Baltic based MEKO corvettes? I was sure they planned to fit these with the RBS-15, but when the programme slowed was this suspended and the Threat of Russia in the Baltic has galvanised the Germans to move forward.

[ArmChairCivvy]

when the programme slowed was this suspended and the Threat of Russia in the Baltic has galvanised the Germans to move forward.

The prgrm slowed as priority was given to the bigger (global) stabilisation frigates. These turned out to be "complex" (read: expensive) and now they have been slowed down and the more numerous (local) corvettes, as a prgrm, accelerated.

[dmereifield]

I was just reading something about the F125 frigates and then went to take a look at its specs.
Wikipedia states:
"diver and swimmer detection sonar (no anti-submarine sonar)"

Is this correct? A half billion £ platform without even an ASW sonar?

[ArmChairCivvy]

A half billion £ platform

They have kept pace with the cost (spiral) of our T26, that is now an understatement.

the bigger (global) stabilisation frigates. These turned out to be "complex" (read: expensive) and now they have been slowed down and the more numerous (local) corvettes, as a prgrm, accelerated.

1 x 127 mm
2 x 27 mm

5 x 12,7 mm RWS
2 x 12,7 mm MG (manned)

2 x 21 launchers for RAM Block II , you can plink boghammers with these, too
8 x RGM-84 Harpoon

2 x NH90 (against submarines)

2 x Water cannon (against pirates; no, not the old model that Boris bought, against anarchists)

[dmereifield]

Thanks, but can they not detect a sub in the first instance without an appropriate hull mounted sonar?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Since when did Somali pirates and other, criminally inclined ragtag militias have subs?
- wrong threat picture (loadsa money wasted)
- would not be surprised with the spec changing and the slowing down of the prgrm being the means to that end

[ArmChairCivvy]

Reminds me of the Leo4s sold back to the manufacturer for peanuts, as there was no threat picture in which they would have been applicable
- now a hundred have been bought back (OK, with upgrades), but:
@ 7 and a half mln euros apiece!... loadsa money wasted

Buy a lot of NH choppers, but don't provison for any spares... loadsa money wasted.

Could go on forever, but the German gvmnt has not hired me as a consultant. Whereas the UK gvmnt is burning pound notes for fun, it seems, and that is from my hard-earned taxes.

[dmereifield]

Surely antipiracy cannot be the primary role of these vessels?
7k tonnes, antiship missiles, 127mm and SAM for fighting pirates?

Even if it is, my point was that spending ca. £2 billion on 4 vessels without an ASW situational awareness or offensive capability, unless the NH90 happens to be in operation at the time, seems crazy (to me at least). Especially when you consider that they will have also spent about £2.5 billion on the K130s which also have no ASW capability, not even the ability to carry the NH90.
So that will be 14 surface combatants, the majority of their surface warship fleet without ASW situational awareness, or unable to contribute to the ASW picture as a nose, with the exception of the NH90s from 4 vessels......

Is this wise? Is it value for money?

[xav]

Germany to Procure Northrop Grumman's MQ-4C Triton UAS to Replace Cancelled Euro Hawk

According to Reuters citing ministry sources, Germany's defence ministry has decided to buy Northrop Grumman-built MQ-4C Triton unmanned air systems (UAS) to replace the RQ-4C-based Euro Hawk, which Berlin cancelled in May 2013. Sensors for the new aircraft are to be built by Airbus, as planned under the previous programme, the sources said. The number of planes to be procured has not been disclosed yet but Germany had planned to buy five Euro Hawk aircraft.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -hawk.html

[ArmChairCivvy]

DID reports
"the German government has blocked deliveries of defense equipment to its NATO ally, claiming that Turkish President Recep Erdogan may be using imported weapons to oppress his own citizens."

Some people (cough-cough, was it Germany by any chance?) wanted EU entry accelerated; I wonder how that situation would look like, if they actually were in today?

[abc123]

Surely antipiracy cannot be the primary role of these vessels?
7k tonnes, antiship missiles, 127mm and SAM for fighting pirates?

Even if it is, my point was that spending ca. £2 billion on 4 vessels without an ASW situational awareness or offensive capability, unless the NH90 happens to be in operation at the time, seems crazy (to me at least). Especially when you consider that they will have also spent about £2.5 billion on the K130s which also have no ASW capability, not even the ability to carry the NH90.
So that will be 14 surface combatants, the majority of their surface warship fleet without ASW situational awareness, or unable to contribute to the ASW picture as a nose, with the exception of the NH90s from 4 vessels......

Is this wise? Is it value for money?

IMHO, no, hell NO!

One of dumbest concepts for a warship lately.

Luckily, the RN will soon change that with their destroyers & frigates without Harpoons.

[abc123]

Surely antipiracy cannot be the primary role of these vessels?
7k tonnes, antiship missiles, 127mm and SAM for fighting pirates?

Even if it is, my point was that spending ca. £2 billion on 4 vessels without an ASW situational awareness or offensive capability, unless the NH90 happens to be in operation at the time, seems crazy (to me at least). Especially when you consider that they will have also spent about £2.5 billion on the K130s which also have no ASW capability, not even the ability to carry the NH90.
So that will be 14 surface combatants, the majority of their surface warship fleet without ASW situational awareness, or unable to contribute to the ASW picture as a nose, with the exception of the NH90s from 4 vessels......

Is this wise? Is it value for money?

German frigate Baden-Wurtenberg, first ship of F125 class, is making a test firings of it's Harpoon and RAM-missiles:

https://navaltoday.com/2017/04/21/video ... -missiles/

Again, I can't wonder enough that these 7000t ships have no ASW capabilities whatsoever...

[abc123]

They are saying that these new frigates are listing 1.3 degrees and are overweight:

https://navaltoday.com/2017/05/14/germa ... em-report/

[dmereifield]

Interesting o see that they will be double crewed...I wonder if that might be an option for the T31?

[abc123]

Interesting o see that they will be double crewed...I wonder if that might be an option for the T31?

Considering that the RN can't afford this level of manning, double crews seem rather far fetched.

[LordJim]

It seems the German Air Force want the ER version of the CH-47F as a replacement for their CH-53s rather than the CH-53K. Makes sense as most other NATO member use the former platform in one form or another.

[ArmChairCivvy]

CH-53s were bought when they had an airmobile division, with an airmech component within it.

With the new Chinook providing a 50% increase in lift (and no airmech left, for which the "flying crane" is best suited), yes, a natural choice, and I can even see some pooling of maintenance on the horizon.

[LordJim]

Have all those little toy tanks been reassigned to more conventional units? I thought they still retain a airmobile brigade.

[muttbutt]

It seems the German Air Force want the ER version of the CH-47F as a replacement for their CH-53s rather than the CH-53K. Makes sense as most other NATO member use the former platform in one form or another.

Also the 53K seems to be suffering huge cost overruns...

[ArmChairCivvy]

the 53K seems to be suffering huge cost overruns...

Often the case as the USMC rqrmnt of over the beach (and now OTH, as well) is quite unique
... did fit in with the German "over the mountains" once upon a time (Gebirgsjaeger; the concept has always required extra-ordinary mobility... and light-weight gear).
- I don't think they have the contract with Lufthansa anymore, for 7 B747s in cargo config, and with floor kits to bring in , to bear the extra weight (of 7 Weasels in one lift; detect the number of sevens in this sentence! Biblical?)

[dmereifield]

German interest in the F35....

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN18D13X

[xav]

UDT in Germany


In this video, coverage of:
- SAAB MCMV 80 mine counter measure vessel
- RTSYS Sonadive Handheld sonar for divers
- JFD Torpedo SEAL swimmer delivery vehicle
- DCNS F21 heavyweight torpedo


In this video, coverage of:
- SAAB lightweight torpedo
- Lockheed Martin S301i and S302 swimmer delivery vehicles
- Rheinmetall submarine simulator
- Northern Diver lightweight dry suit for special forces
- Safran submarine masts

[muttbutt]

It's time to spend some money. This Wednesday the Budget Committee (Haushaltsausschuss) of the German parliament votes on quite a few new military investments. The Highlights:

The five additional K130 class corvettes for the navy
The new armed UAV (Heron TP)
The existing lease of Heron 1 UAVs will be extended.
New LUNA UAVs
Roughly a $100 million worth of GMLRS missiles for the MARS rocket artillery system (Germany designation for the MLRS)
€45 million for more 120mm ammunition
€81 million for the first batch of the new digital communication system for the army ( MoTaKo )
around €130 million for upgrades for the Puma IFV, including an active protection system
Ten replacement engines for the A400M (to be on the safe side if something should happen, as far as I can tell)
€100 million worth of upgrades for the Tiger
€369 million for the advanced infantry system ( IdZ, "infantryman of the future" )
€39 million for new night vision gear
€1.85 billion for new sub R&D (the R&D for the German/Norwegian sub project)
€224 million for new trucks
€112 million for upgrades for the Boxer APC
€5.4 billion for new army maintenance logistics ( Heeresinstandsetzungslogistik, HIL)

Thanks to Roi denton over on Spacebattles for this.

Source in German. http://augengeradeaus.net/2017/06/korve ... muss-rein/

[ArmChairCivvy]

around €130 million for upgrades for the Puma IFV, including an active protection system

Now both the Dutch and the Germans have made up their minds; not to mention the Israelis and the Russians
- expecting quite an avalanche to build up (expensive stuff, though)

The strength of the fate put into such systems is reflected e.g. by the fact that the next-gen Israeli MBT is expected to be around 35 t, half of the Chally2 totally relying on passive protection.

[muttbutt]

German A400M spotted with AAR pod...