UK Defence Forum

Given that the Commando Merlins are younger and how long the Commando Sea Kings were in service, you can expect them to stay in service as long or longer than the ASW's

13 refurbs and three new-build. Most of refurb work to be done in Canada. New-builds from Yeovil will keep the line staggering on for a short while.

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 09:17 13 refurbs and three new-build. Most of refurb work to be done in Canada. New-builds from Yeovil will keep the line staggering on for a short while.

There is allegedly some other countries close to signing on the dotted line for Merlin and Wildcat..

Was most of the manufacture of Merlin not outsourced to Poland years ago? FAL at Yeovil.

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 09:17 13 refurbs and three new-build. Most of refurb work to be done in Canada. New-builds from Yeovil will keep the line staggering on for a short while.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 50.article

According to Flight Global the additional three are going to partially assembled from the parts bin and the Kestrel fleet the Candians bought off the US.

Might not be the biggest slice of work for Yeovil either:

To be led by the manufacturer, the modernisation will be performed by the Team Cormorant grouping, which also includes IMP Aerospace and Defence, GE Canada and Collins Aerospace Canada. Most of the work will be performed in Canada, primarily at IMP’s facilities in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The DND values the upgrade work at C$1.16 billion.

Nonetheless, the ghost of Westland seems likely to live another day!

Timmymagic wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 09:45

RichardIC wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 09:17 13 refurbs and three new-build. Most of refurb work to be done in Canada. New-builds from Yeovil will keep the line staggering on for a short while.

There is allegedly some other countries close to signing on the dotted line for Merlin and Wildcat..

Suicidal policy of HMG- to allow closing of that factory.

https://hushkit.net/2023/01/24/intervie ... ter-pilot/

Commander ‘Grassy’ Knowles gives us the low-down on flying and fighting in this 14-ton Anglo-Italian masterpiece of helicopter design.

Breaking news out of Poland !!!!
Big win for the AW101 helicopter with 22 new birds for the Polish Army Aviation in the transport role.

Excelent news ! now if the RN could order some more aswell

serge750 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:21 Excelent news ! now if the RN could order some more aswell

Why not for the Puma replacements?

Strike while the line is hot!

Because it’s far to large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.


Poland manufactures most of the merlin structure so likely why there interested

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:38 Because it’s far to large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.

We've also been down this road before. It was an expensive and rather wasteful experience.

Additional HM2s would be welcome but we don't have the money.

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:38 Because it’s far too large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.

What price commonality?

Small batches of virtually bespoke types is the most expensive way to operate. Does the Army Wildcat even still make sense or would a Puma/Wildcat joint replacement be a better option with the Army Wildcats transferred to RN?

Either the Puma replacement or the Chinooks needs to be marinised with auto folding rotors or the FCF is going to be very short of helos. More Merlin makes perfect sense even if it’s just 15 to 20 for the LSGs.

This is one area where a lot of money could be saved if a more joined up approach was taken.

If you where head of JHF and had the money, which option would you choose?
Options:
a. Get more more Merlin until NGRC and NMH
b. When NMH gets ordered add a few more in to initially support navy needs.

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 22:03

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:38 Because it’s far too large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.

What price commonality?

Small batches of virtually bespoke types is the most expensive way to operate. Does the Army Wildcat even still make sense or would a Puma/Wildcat joint replacement be a better option with the Army Wildcats transferred to RN?

Either the Puma replacement or the Chinooks needs to be marinised with auto folding rotors or the FCF is going to be very short of helos. More Merlin makes perfect sense even if it’s just 15 to 20 for the LSGs.

This is one area where a lot of money could be saved if a more joined up approach was taken.

Correct they do and that joined up approach screams bin merlin completely and has done for about 2 decades, buy more chinook it’s what the commandos wanted in the first place.

More Merlin’s make zero sense. Especially if your wanting merlin to operate in mountains or anywhere hot like the gulf and east Africa.

The Puma replacement revolves around moving special forces teams in confined urban and other areas. Merlin is chinook footprint with poor lift in global locations of interest. If you really wanted commonalities and went back 30 years merlin and wildcat wouldn’t have existed and it would have been UH and MH-60R. Going fwd you would do something similar but around a new medium helicopter/tiltrotor depending very much on how much you want to spend on rotorcraft.

Jensy wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 21:06

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:38 Because it’s far to large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.

We've also been down this road before. It was an expensive and rather wasteful experience.

Additional HM2s would be welcome but we don't have the money.

I believe 6 viable stripped HM1's are still in storage, they could be rebuilt to HM2 spec if needed.

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 22:03

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 20:38 Because it’s far too large costly and unsuitable for a puma replacement not to mention its wheezy in hot and high conditions.

What price commonality?

Small batches of virtually bespoke types is the most expensive way to operate. Does the Army Wildcat even still make sense or would a Puma/Wildcat joint replacement be a better option with the Army Wildcats transferred to RN?

Either the Puma replacement or the Chinooks needs to be marinised with auto folding rotors or the FCF is going to be very short of helos. More Merlin makes perfect sense even if it’s just 15 to 20 for the LSGs.

This is one area where a lot of money could be saved if a more joined up approach was taken.

Absolutely...

Wildcat was an absolutely insane waste of money, for bespoke a British requirement.

Many originally hypnotised that the unit cost ( based on the 60 airframe production run) would be so insanely high, it's export prospects would be little to nothing.

This has proven to be correct.

The Army version has little utility use to the Army, carrying 4 passengers, with no specific recon or scouting equipment, bar a flir and no integrated weaponry (bar it's door guns), it's a master of absolutely sod all.

Forced onto the Army by a government happy to hamstring the armed forces to keep the Wasteland factory going at any cost... A sort of tail wagging the dog insanity!

It's an excellent Naval helicopter to be fair, but even then they haven't funded the dipping sonar for the RN, so even there it's been limited in its effect.

All absolute madness and a great example of how we throw away our defence budget.

Not sure there is much benefit fitting a dipping sonar to Wildcat given its range and payload. It's main role is Anti-Surface for which it is probably the best naval helicopter on the market.

mrclark303 wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 09:52 Forced onto the Army by a government happy to hamstring the armed forces to keep the Wasteland factory going at any cost... A sort of tail wagging the dog insanity!

It's an excellent Naval helicopter to be fair, but even then they haven't funded the dipping sonar for the RN, so even there it's been limited in its effect.

All absolute madness and a great example of how we throw away our defence budget.

Is it though? Money spent in the UK stays in the UK, while money sent out to foreign suppliers leaves our economy, never to return.
If you farm out the equipment why not farm out the armed forces too. Fork over £50bn to the US and let them protect us?

mrclark303 wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 09:37 I believe 6 viable stripped HM1's are still in storage, they could be rebuilt to HM2 spec if needed.

From what's been said in the past, they're in such a disassembled state that there's not much advantage over building from new. Particularly if they haven't been in proper storage for the last decade or more. The HM1 -> HM2 upgrade cost nearly £40m per airframe.

Where we are now, I'd be more keen to put funds into a fixed wing ASW UCAV for the carriers and any other flat tops we might be lucky enough to get down the line (Mojave with the Sea Guardian pods or similar).

If we stick to the plan to replace Crowsnest for AEW around 2030, that will free up a lot of HM2s for ASW ahead of a proper replacement.

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 22:34 More Merlin’s make zero sense. Especially if your wanting merlin to operate in mountains or anywhere hot like the gulf and east Africa.

The Puma replacement revolves around moving special forces teams in confined urban and other areas. Merlin is chinook footprint with poor lift in global locations of interest. If you really wanted commonalities and went back 30 years merlin and wildcat wouldn’t have existed and it would have been UH and MH-60R. Going fwd you would do something similar but around a new medium helicopter/tiltrotor depending very much on how much you want to spend on rotorcraft.

Lots of dislocation here and it’s something the Defence Command Paper could address.

Either the number of Chinooks or Merlin increase or the Puma replacements need to be marinised. Any other outcome and the UKs helicopter number are unsustainably low for HMG’s ambition.

- Transferring all of the Wildcats to RN solves lots of problems for the FCF and allows the Army to focus on larger numbers of one common helo for battlefield reconnaissance and transport. UK PLC benefits too. Increasing the number of RN escorts will require more helicopters so they are going to have to come from somewhere.

- If greater numbers of Merlin are not RN’s preference then just order another dozen marinised Chinook’s with auto folding rotors and paint them grey.

Dislocation solved.

mr.fred wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 10:46

mrclark303 wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 09:52 Forced onto the Army by a government happy to hamstring the armed forces to keep the Wasteland factory going at any cost... A sort of tail wagging the dog insanity!

It's an excellent Naval helicopter to be fair, but even then they haven't funded the dipping sonar for the RN, so even there it's been limited in its effect.

All absolute madness and a great example of how we throw away our defence budget.

Is it though? Money spent in the UK stays in the UK, while money sent out to foreign suppliers leaves our economy, never to return.
If you farm out the equipment why not farm out the armed forces too. Fork over £50bn to the US and let them protect us?

Well, I personally think forcing a pointless and extremely expensive helicopter on the Army is utter madness, it's barking mad quite frankly....

They would have been better off building new production Lynx for the Navy, with new avionics and an off the shelf light utility type for the Army.

The savings would have been enoumous.....

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 18:45

SW1 wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 22:34 More Merlin’s make zero sense. Especially if your wanting merlin to operate in mountains or anywhere hot like the gulf and east Africa.

The Puma replacement revolves around moving special forces teams in confined urban and other areas. Merlin is chinook footprint with poor lift in global locations of interest. If you really wanted commonalities and went back 30 years merlin and wildcat wouldn’t have existed and it would have been UH and MH-60R. Going fwd you would do something similar but around a new medium helicopter/tiltrotor depending very much on how much you want to spend on rotorcraft.

Lots of dislocation here and it’s something the Defence Command Paper could address.

Either the number of Chinooks or Merlin increase or the Puma replacements need to be marinised. Any other outcome and the UKs helicopter number are unsustainably low for HMG’s ambition.

- Transferring all of the Wildcats to RN solves lots of problems for the FCF and allows the Army to focus on larger numbers of one common helo for battlefield reconnaissance and transport. UK PLC benefits too. Increasing the number of RN escorts will require more helicopters so they are going to have to come from somewhere.

- If greater numbers of Merlin are not RN’s preference then just order another dozen marinised Chinook’s with auto folding rotors and paint them grey.

Dislocation solved.

So what is the ambition that requires more chinook or Merlin at sea?? None that I can see. 5 chinooks will do a company lift in one go see no more need than that. Chinook can support certain theoretical embassy evacuation options in east or west Africa where Merlin cannot.

Chinook can lift marine equipment and logistics that Merlin cannot. I would suggest it maybe more about freeing up personnel and budget to make better use of the current chinook fleet than adding more. Chinook was at sea a lot in the 00s and most ships are now chinook capable.

Puma replacement is around confined operations it’s why they were the choice in Baghdad and Kabul.

The question the defence paper needs to answer is what formations are being moved by helicopter and where. Chinook will stay but for everything below the question is, is it go tiltrotor or not personally I don’t think we need to.

But I would start now with a long term plan replacing everything below chinook with a common medium rotorcraft especially if future soldiering is seen more as fighting from urban environments.

SW1 wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 19:37 So what is the ambition that requires more chinook or Merlin at sea??

Very simple.

Can RN operate the CSG plus LRG(N) and LRG(S) whilst maintaining the required helicopters on all available escorts concurrently?

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 19:41

SW1 wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 19:37 So what is the ambition that requires more chinook or Merlin at sea??

Very simple.

Can RN operate the CSG plus LRG(N) and LRG(S) whilst maintaining the required helicopters on all available escorts concurrently?

That is not what the government currently requires. It is your wish list.