River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Spey, now
she is at New Zealand!

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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That's about as 'offshore' as you can get. 👍
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Off Continental Shelf Patrol Vessel (OCSPV) ?! :mrgreen:

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Antipos Patrol Vessel (APV).

Interestingly, New Zealand built 56m-class patrol boats, two of the four, is to be delivered to Ireland soon. Yet another "APV", in exchange. :D

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Oceanic Patrol Vessel ?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Overseas Patrol Squadron Vessel (OPSV)
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

new guy
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I wish we could get some more.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Icedragon9 »

I found this new class of OPV being built in South Korea for the Phillipines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippin ... rol_Vessel

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... pine-navy/

This is probably the minimum that you would need to patrol the SCS given the Chinese presence in the region.
The South Korean shipyard also said that they are looking for more overseas orders. Looks like a good option for other countries in SEA.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

In the light of new contacts and costs of new kit what could be done to the RB2's to upgrade them

1) fit a Giraffe 1X 3D radar cost 1.85 million
2) fit a 40mm Mk4 cost 4 million
3) 2 x new Jackal drones 600K

So for a cost of say 8 million per ship we could see the RB2's take a big step forward as a RB2 fitted like so could be fitted with a CAMM pod with say 8 to 10 CAMM it would have eyes OTH up to 100km and with LMM fitted it would have limited strike out to this range the 40mm would allow better self defence day to day

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Definitely gives some interesting options (though personally would still go for a 57mm rather than 40mm).

Regardless, the idea of frequent continual improvement responding to needs and new opportunities is the right thing to do over big political announcements that go nowhere.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

For the radar, I will propose Rada's "Multi-Mission Hemispheric Radar" (or its enhanced version). It is Counter-UAS, Very Short-Range Air Defense (VSHORAD), Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar (C-RAM) sensor. It is an AESA plate covering 90degree region.

Image
https://www.drsrada.com/products/mhr
This smaller version can cover out to Fighter 35 km / Fighter(Low RCS) 20 km

The enhanced version (the same radar which is used for containized C-DOME proposal)
https://www.drsrada.com/products/iemhr
can cover Fighter 65 km / Fighter(Low RCS) 35 km

My proposal is to
- make a sub-system made of 2 units of them (for 180 deg coverage)
- use 2 sub-systems to make 360 deg coverage
and design it to integrate the info into CMS. Buy such "360deg coverage system with two 180 deg units", about 10 sets (or 40 radars in total), and rotate it among the fleets, such as River B2, Type-31, Type-26 and even Type-23.

Mount 2 sub-systems on
- River-B2 = at the base of the 2D radar. There is good enough space there. One to the starbord, another to the port.
- Type-26 = at the base of the 2 SCOT antenna domes. There is good enough space there. One to the starbord, another to the port.
- Type-23 = the same as T26.
- Type-31 = outside of the two funnels

The radar system will complement the exiting ones (Artisan-3D and SCANTER), and provide counter-UAS and very-short rage high refresh-rate 3D picture of the airspace (close-on situation awareness). The main aim is to counter drones swarm. It could be integrated into CMS to
- direct CAMM (T26, T23, and T31)
- direct 57mm and 40mm guns (T31)
- direct 30mm guns (T23, T26, and River B2)

The ships to be deployed to Persian Gulf and East Med will need it, but those Atlantic waters may not. It is compact and lightweight, so that even Type-23 frigate can be added with it.

Just a proposal.

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Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 14 May 2023, 15:52 For the radar, I will propose Rada's "Multi-Mission Hemispheric Radar" (or its enhanced version). It is Counter-UAS, Very Short-Range Air Defense (VSHORAD), Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar (C-RAM) sensor. It is an AESA plate covering 90degree region.

Image
https://www.drsrada.com/products/mhr
This smaller version can cover out to Fighter 35 km / Fighter(Low RCS) 20 km

The enhanced version (the same radar which is used for containized C-DOME proposal)
https://www.drsrada.com/products/iemhr
can cover Fighter 65 km / Fighter(Low RCS) 35 km

My proposal is to
- make a sub-system made of 2 units of them (for 180 deg coverage)
- use 2 sub-systems to make 360 deg coverage
and design it to integrate the info into CMS. Buy such "360deg coverage system with two 180 deg units", about 10 sets (or 40 radars in total), and rotate it among the fleets, such as River B2, Type-31, Type-26 and even Type-23.

Mount 2 sub-systems on
- River-B2 = at the base of the 2D radar. There is good enough space there. One to the starbord, another to the port.
- Type-26 = at the base of the 2 SCOT antenna domes. There is good enough space there. One to the starbord, another to the port.
- Type-23 = the same as T26.
- Type-31 = outside of the two funnels

The radar system will complement the exiting ones (Artisan-3D and SCANTER), and provide counter-UAS and very-short rage high refresh-rate 3D picture of the airspace (close-on situation awareness). The main aim is to counter drones swarm. It could be integrated into CMS to
- direct CAMM (T26, T23, and T31)
- direct 57mm and 40mm guns (T31)
- direct 30mm guns (T23, T26, and River B2)

The ships to be deployed to Persian Gulf and East Med will need it, but those Atlantic waters may not. It is compact and lightweight, so that even Type-23 frigate can be added with it.

Just a proposal.
How much would this system cost per ship

If as you say we were to do all ships great but if only doing the RB2's it is down to costs

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by tomuk »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 14 May 2023, 15:52 For the radar, I will propose Rada's "Multi-Mission Hemispheric Radar" (or its enhanced version). It is Counter-UAS, Very Short-Range Air Defense (VSHORAD), Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar (C-RAM) sensor. It is an AESA plate covering 90degree region.
Ok fine for Counter UAS, VSHORAD, Counter Battery as a compliment to the 3D radars on the larger ships but on the Rivers I'd would put an upgrade to a conventional 3D radar ahead of the very short range Rada.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 14 May 2023, 16:30 How much would this system cost per ship
If as you say we were to do all ships great but if only doing the RB2's it is down to costs
What I could find is, for the smaller one, it costed $8M + $1M for "dozens of units" in 2017.
https://www.drsrada.com/blog/rada-recei ... s-military
https://www.bloomberg.com/press-release ... s-military
Not a native English speaker, I cannot imagine how much the "dozens of" means, but I guess 24-48? This will give us 6-12 "4-plated 360deg coverage system". If 9 systems (36 units), it is $1M per system ($0.25M per unit).
tomuk wrote: 15 May 2023, 00:43Ok fine for Counter UAS, VSHORAD, Counter Battery as a compliment to the 3D radars on the larger ships but on the Rivers I'd would put an upgrade to a conventional 3D radar ahead of the very short range Rada.
Understandable. My point is

- Many of the River B2 tasks does not need military grade 3D radar (in 1 rpm). Even the Scanter2000 is over specified. Especially, when T31 comes in, the "east-of-suez" River B2 will be reduced in number. But, some of their tasks may need it. So, why not optional one?

- Some of the T23 tasks might be better with such AESA 360 deg coverage. The RoE may not allow the frigate to fire her CAMM on "20 km range", but may require to engage such UAS threats in more close distance, say, 2-4 km. In this case, 2-seconds refresh rate of Artisal-3D may not be good enough, while the long-range coverage of it not needed. So, adding these radars will significantly improve the near-vicinity situation awarness of the frigate.

And, I think the possibility the T23 will face these threats (under this limiting RoE) is far larger than that for the River B2.

- The same argument applies for T26, as its sensor suits are the same to that of T23.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

So it is in the same price range which is good but as said it would need to come in to service across the escort fleet or with the army to be good value. At this time we know we know the Army uses Giraffe 3D radars for Sky Sabre and has just ordered 11 more with one going to the Navy. So for me following trials on XV PB we could order 5 more for the RB'2 allowing cross service cost , logistic support

Plus you right about dozens

A dozen =12 , two dozen =24 , dozens = 36 to 72 and in this case probably meaning 36 to 48

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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For me even once the T-31's come in to service keeping the RB2's forward deployed would be a good way of really growing the navy by having 5 x T-31 and 5 x upgraded RB2's in two overseas patrol sqn's

For right now I think we could build 4 x new 80m OPV's fitted with

Giraffe 3D radar , bottom end CMS , 1 x 40mm gun , 2 x RWS 12.7mm

And then Upgrade the RB2's with

Giraffe 3D radar , upgrade the CMS 1 level , 57mm , 2 x 30mm , 2 x Jackal UAV's

I think this could be done for 500 million

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 15 May 2023, 09:01 For right now I think we could build 4 x new 80m OPV's fitted with

Giraffe 3D radar , bottom end CMS , 1 x 40mm gun , 2 x RWS 12.7mm
Do we need them to be OPVs or is this the configuration for the future LSVs? Current requirement is for four vessels, but perhaps add three to replace the B1s
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 15 May 2023, 08:39 So it is in the same price range which is good but as said it would need to come in to service across the escort fleet or with the army to be good value. At this time we know we know the Army uses Giraffe 3D radars for Sky Sabre and has just ordered 11 more with one going to the Navy.
Two points.
1: Much cheaper. If it is 48, the system cost (with 4 AESA) is $0.75M/system. Giraffe 1X radars is US$25M for 11 systems = $2.7M/system. Nearly 4 times difference.
2: I understand UK British Army has numbers of the same Rada radar system. So, logistic commonality is not a big problem (*1)

You are proposing Giraffe 1X to replace River B2's Scanter 2D radar, which is understandable. I am proposing to improve all RN assets in the close-in air-situation awareness. So, we are actually talking about two different "wishes".

(To say the truth, for me, capable of mounting the Rada MHR radar systems onboard T23 and T26 is my main point.)

ref *1: https://www.army-technology.com/news/ra ... tish-army/

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 15 May 2023, 09:01 For me even once the T-31's come in to service keeping the RB2's forward deployed would be a good way of really growing the navy by having 5 x T-31 and 5 x upgraded RB2's in two overseas patrol sqn's

For right now I think we could build 4 x new 80m OPV's fitted with

Giraffe 3D radar , bottom end CMS , 1 x 40mm gun , 2 x RWS 12.7mm

And then Upgrade the RB2's with

Giraffe 3D radar , upgrade the CMS 1 level , 57mm , 2 x 30mm , 2 x Jackal UAV's

I think this could be done for 500 million
Sorry, but I do think UK needs a number of simple OPVs with simple radar sets and simple guns. Look around the world. 80% of the OPVs in the world is much more lightly armed than River B2s. River B1 is the typical of an OPV of the world.

Having some OPVs with good radar and equipment may be reasonable. But, making all the UK OPVs to that standard is pointless, I think. Cheap, numerous, and easy to steam for long. This is the heart of an OPV.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 15 May 2023, 15:33
Tempest414 wrote: 15 May 2023, 09:01 For me even once the T-31's come in to service keeping the RB2's forward deployed would be a good way of really growing the navy by having 5 x T-31 and 5 x upgraded RB2's in two overseas patrol sqn's

For right now I think we could build 4 x new 80m OPV's fitted with

Giraffe 3D radar , bottom end CMS , 1 x 40mm gun , 2 x RWS 12.7mm

And then Upgrade the RB2's with

Giraffe 3D radar , upgrade the CMS 1 level , 57mm , 2 x 30mm , 2 x Jackal UAV's

I think this could be done for 500 million
Sorry, but I do think UK needs a number of simple OPVs with simple radar sets and simple guns. Look around the world. 80% of the OPVs in the world is much more lightly armed than River B2s. River B1 is the typical of an OPV of the world.

Having some OPVs with good radar and equipment may be reasonable. But, making all the UK OPVs to that standard is pointless, I think. Cheap, numerous, and easy to steam for long. This is the heart of an OPV.
I hear what you are saying but 90% of the worlds OPV's are not deployed half way around the world they are deployed in home waters plus the game is changing if we like it or not also there are lot of OPV classes with 57 & 76mm fitted

Maybe if we were to upgrade the RB2's radar to a 3D set then any new RB1 replacement could get the Scanter 2D set as hand me downs

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 15 May 2023, 16:10I hear what you are saying but 90% of the worlds OPV's are not deployed half way around the world they are deployed in home waters plus the game is changing if we like it or not also there are lot of OPV classes with 57 & 76mm fitted

Maybe if we were to upgrade the RB2's radar to a 3D set then any new RB1 replacement could get the Scanter 2D set as hand me downs
Please note, I am not saying equipping River B2 with Giraffe 1X 3D radar is stupid. Depending on the tasks to be considered, it could be an option. What I was against was, you propose to make all the OPV (new built OPV and River B2s) be with Giraffe 3D radar. I disagree here. For example, I will be more relaxed to hear to buy "4 simple new OPVs", and "up-equip 5 River B2s with Giraffe 1X 3D radar" = mixed fleet.

This "lack of simple OPVs" will make the navy "weaker", not "stronger". In many cases, 2 simple OPVs at sea are much more useful than 1 well-armed OPV at sea. (I mean, x1.5 unit cost, and x1.3 less sea-going days, will make the vessel-at-sea x2 different.)

World is changing. And, strength of simple patrol vessels will never change. You think NO RN OPVs must be deployed around British territory? Of course UK needs several Patrol Vessels to be "deployed in home waters", for sure. The mixed fleet is always the strongest because it can well prepared for the mixed threats. Exactly because "the world is changing", having a few simple OPVs in RN fleet is MUST, I think.

By the way, my proposal on Rada AESA optional addition to River B2 with Scanter 2D radar, is right along this line. Simple River B2 can be kept simple. Some River B2s, when deployed to "such" area, can be "optionally up-equipped" with the 4-AESA-plates, thanks to new modular/open-architecture technologies. Much more flexible. (although, I admit "also capable to be added to T23" is my main aim).
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

As Scanter 2D is only on the B2 Rivers, given the costs surely it’s more cost effective to replace it completely with a common radar than supporting two types?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 15 May 2023, 18:20 As Scanter 2D is only on the B2 Rivers, given the costs surely it’s more cost effective to replace it completely with a common radar than supporting two types?
Good point. Cheaper and less-maintenance load is essential.

At the same time, I think, a simple OPV like River B1 is very much needed in RN. Smaller vessels like Damen 5009 or 4008 may also work.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 16 May 2023, 02:18
Repulse wrote: 15 May 2023, 18:20 As Scanter 2D is only on the B2 Rivers, given the costs surely it’s more cost effective to replace it completely with a common radar than supporting two types?
Good point. Cheaper and less-maintenance load is essential.

At the same time, I think, a simple OPV like River B1 is very much needed in RN. Smaller vessels like Damen 5009 or 4008 may also work.
For me the 5009 and 4008 are to small and the smallest we should looking at is 75 meters however I think more like 85 meters. We also know that the 20mm cannon is going out of service leaving us with the 30mm or 40mm we have also seen last month a RB1 working in the Baltic which I think we will see more of

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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For me if we could get to a point where we had 3 Patrol Sqn's with the first 2 overseas made up of T-31 and RB2's and the third made up of 4 x new OPV's in Home waters and covering joint training in the Baltic the Navy would be in a good place

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