Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
French POM size?
No!! I said previously many times that we needed UK Patrol Vessels to replace the RB1s in the 80m - 90m range.
I was replying above specifically to Tempest when he wanted to transfer the River B2s to UK waters. The River B2s should be kept where they are. The River B2s are Ocean Patrol Vessels.
The design follows the modern trend of "no helicopter hangar on 70-90m OPV/corvettes". Reasonable. Is shall be noted that these ships will replace Kingston class MCDV, routinely deployed to Caribbean. Even so, there is no requirement for helicopter (meaning that heli-UAV is enough). Note that the flight deck is also "only for UAVs", too small for a Wildcat. It follows the approach French patrol vessel took.
It has a side-open mission-bay, about 12m long, and designed to adopt PODS system. Notable is that the original Vard 7-072 has a Palfinger-type stern boat ramp. So, it is the result of trade-off study. Yet anther "side-access" mission bay design success. We all know Palfinger-type stern boat ramp is attractive, but apparently it does not dominating the world. It means there are pros and cons.
Can this vessel be a candidate for River B1 replacement? I think yes. As Canadian Navy has ordered detailed design and going to build it, it is no longer a power-point. So, say, Babcock can "buy" its detailed design and start building 3 of them for RN relatively soon. Commonality with Canada will also help.
For example,
- extend the River B1 life for another 2 years, until 2030-31.
- order 3 new OPVs on 2026 from Rosyth, with deliveries on 2029-30, with in-service date on 2030-31. This will also "save the day" for Rosyth, after T31 build end, and some new order...
I agree 100%, apart from the fact that I think we need 4 such Patrol Vessels considering the size of the UK Maritime EEZ. I would be in favour of them being based spread around the UK at regional ports, one based in th English Channel and the other 3 to cover the "spikes" in EEZ (to the South West, North West and North East).
The whole of the UK including BOT has an EEZ of 2,627,651 square miles.
only 298,718 of that is GB, NI and the isle of man, or a bit less than 1/9th meaning 4x9=36
I believe your assessment of 4 is correct, but it must reminded that many territories will be better served by a smaller OPV like say gibraltar, and or a lesser amount considering less marine traffic, like pitcairn islands.
Areas with over 100,000 sq miles: 9 including the UK
Areas with over 10,000 sq miles: 4
Areas with over 1,000 sq miles: 2 (Channel islands, Montserrat)
Areas with under 1,000 sq miles: 1 (Gibraltar)
The UK hasn't claimed territorial or an EEZ for Akrotiri and Dhekelia and has only claimed territorial waters for Gibraltar.
British Antarctic Territory not included.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
I don't think so I believe we need a ship that has good range and endurance that can cover all parts of EEZ plus being able to push into the Baltic and Med when needed conducting shadowing of Russia ships around the UK and other waters
Outside of this we should look to replace the Archer class with a new 35 x 7.5 meter fast patrol boat with a speed of 35+ knots and a range of 900 nm . These should be capable of carrying 1 x RWS mounted 40mm GMG , 2 x 12.7mm and 12 Sea Spear or 4 x Sea Venom plus 20 RM
wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 16:10
I agree 100%, apart from the fact that I think we need 4 such Patrol Vessels considering the size of the UK Maritime EEZ. I would be in favour of them being based spread around the UK at regional ports, one based in th English Channel and the other 3 to cover the "spikes" in EEZ (to the South West, North West and North East).
The whole of the UK including BOT has an EEZ of 2,627,651 square miles.
only 298,718 of that is GB, NI and the isle of man, or a bit less than 1/9th meaning 4x9=36
I believe your assessment of 4 is correct, but it must reminded that many territories will be better served by a smaller OPV like say gibraltar, and or a lesser amount considering less marine traffic, like pitcairn islands.
Areas with over 100,000 sq miles: 9 including the UK
Areas with over 10,000 sq miles: 4
Areas with over 1,000 sq miles: 2 (Channel islands, Montserrat)
Areas with under 1,000 sq miles: 1 (Gibraltar)
The UK hasn't claimed territorial or an EEZ for Akrotiri and Dhekelia and has only claimed territorial waters for Gibraltar.
British Antarctic Territory not included.
For clarification, in the above I was purely talking about UK waters for maritime EEZ.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
French POM size?
No!! I said previously many times that we needed UK Patrol Vessels to replace the RB1s in the 80m - 90m range.
I was replying above specifically to Tempest when he wanted to transfer the River B2s to UK waters. The River B2s should be kept where they are. The River B2s are Ocean Patrol Vessels.
Well the last time I look the B1's were OPV's and the B2's will be coming back to UK waters I reckon
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
I don't think so I believe we need a ship that has good range and endurance that can cover all parts of EEZ plus being able to push into the Baltic and Med when needed conducting shadowing of Russia ships around the UK and other waters
Then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I was talking about purely covering UK waters. When you start talking about "to push into the Baltic and Med" then you have gone beyond merely patrolling UK waters.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
I don't think so I believe we need a ship that has good range and endurance that can cover all parts of EEZ plus being able to push into the Baltic and Med when needed conducting shadowing of Russia ships around the UK and other waters
Then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I was talking about purely covering UK waters. When you start talking about "to push into the Baltic and Med" then you have gone beyond merely patrolling UK waters.
Having 3 x B2's mainly in UK waters is what would happen day to day but as we see with the B1's they are starting to push out this is down to them dropping the fisheries duty HMS Tyne was in the Baltic not long back and the B1 has also patrolled in the Med to
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
French POM size?
No!! I said previously many times that we needed UK Patrol Vessels to replace the RB1s in the 80m - 90m range.
I was replying above specifically to Tempest when he wanted to transfer the River B2s to UK waters. The River B2s should be kept where they are. The River B2s are Ocean Patrol Vessels.
Well the last time I look the B1's were OPV's and the B2's will be coming back to UK waters I reckon
Nope - River B2s are too big for what is needed for patrolling purely UK waters.
Don't forget you are talking in the escort thread of uparming the T31s and in the OPV thread of uparming the River B2s.
The T31s AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY EQUIPPED make good Patrol Frigates but IMO are nt much good at anything else currently. Therefore if the T31s are kept AS THEY ARE, then I can see 1 being sent to the Persian Gulf and others being used to take over some of the missions that River B2s currently fullfil e.g. in Med, Carribbean, Falklands Islands.
But if you upgrade the T31s as you consistently argue in the Escorts thread (and for which I have stated many times I broadly agree with), then with Sonar, NSM Containers and extra CAMM and/or Mk 41 VLS, then these upgraded T31s will start to be more widely useful, adding to the escorts for CSG, LRG and even for FRE. That would mean that they are no longer available to take over from many of the River B2s.
Then separetely you have argued many times for the River B2s to be upgraded. If they were given better sensors and armanent, then yes the River B2s would be better able to carry out patrols in the likes of Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman etc. But they don't need those upgrades if you are then going to send them to replace the smaller RB1s in patrolling UK waters.....
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
I don't think so I believe we need a ship that has good range and endurance that can cover all parts of EEZ plus being able to push into the Baltic and Med when needed conducting shadowing of Russia ships around the UK and other waters
Then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I was talking about purely covering UK waters. When you start talking about "to push into the Baltic and Med" then you have gone beyond merely patrolling UK waters.
Having 3 x B2's mainly in UK waters is what would happen day to day but as we see with the B1's they are starting to push out this is down to them dropping the fisheries duty HMS Tyne was in the Baltic not long back and the B1 has also patrolled in the Med to
If you choose to drop the fisheries protection task, then you will no doubt have to drop some of current RN Budget, because if another organisation is required to take on the fisheries protection, then they will expect to have assets available to carry the task out. Therefore all you have accomplished is to reduce the RN's current Budget and presumably the RN's current number of vessels.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 10:24
I like the Vigilance design however we have a opportunity to build say 4 105m by 15m OPV's for overseas forward deployment in support of the T-31's and allowing the B2's to come back to home waters including the Baltic and Med
For me the RN needs to drop fisheries and just do patrols of UK and Baltic waters as said before both class should have the same 3D radar , 40mm gun and peregrine UAV's plus use POD's for any other kit as needed
Also as said the new 105m ship should keep the same main crew number but have a hangar plus up to 70 bunks for other teams working on the ships
No. The River B2s should be named as Ocean Patrol Vessels - they have a much better sea keeping and endurance and they are way too big for what we need in UK waters.
We need smaller, cheaper, simpler Patrol Vessels for UK waters.
I don't think so I believe we need a ship that has good range and endurance that can cover all parts of EEZ plus being able to push into the Baltic and Med when needed conducting shadowing of Russia ships around the UK and other waters
Then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I was talking about purely covering UK waters. When you start talking about "to push into the Baltic and Med" then you have gone beyond merely patrolling UK waters.
Having 3 x B2's mainly in UK waters is what would happen day to day but as we see with the B1's they are starting to push out this is down to them dropping the fisheries duty HMS Tyne was in the Baltic not long back and the B1 has also patrolled in the Med to
If you choose to drop the fisheries protection task, then you will no doubt have to drop some of current RN Budget, because if another organisation is required to take on the fisheries protection, then they will expect to have assets available to carry the task out. Therefore all you have accomplished is to reduce the RN's current Budget and presumably the RN's current number of vessels.
Scotland have there own fisheries patrol boats already and did I read that Wales is also now taking on fisheries with a new boat add to this the Falklands now have a fisheries vessel
For me the job of the RN home waters OPV's is to patrol UK water protect others doing there jobs and from time to time push out and work along side Allies to protect UK interests
Nope - River B2s are too big for what is needed for patrolling purely UK waters.
Don't forget you are talking in the escort thread of uparming the T31s and in the OPV thread of uparming the River B2s.
The T31s AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY EQUIPPED make good Patrol Frigates but IMO are nt much good at anything else currently. Therefore if the T31s are kept AS THEY ARE, then I can see 1 being sent to the Persian Gulf and others being used to take over some of the missions that River B2s currently fullfil e.g. in Med, Carribbean, Falklands Islands.
But if you upgrade the T31s as you consistently argue in the Escorts thread (and for which I have stated many times I broadly agree with), then with Sonar, NSM Containers and extra CAMM and/or Mk 41 VLS, then these upgraded T31s will start to be more widely useful, adding to the escorts for CSG, LRG and even for FRE. That would mean that they are no longer available to take over from many of the River B2s.
Then separetely you have argued many times for the River B2s to be upgraded. If they were given better sensors and armanent, then yes the River B2s would be better able to carry out patrols in the likes of Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman etc. But they don't need those upgrades if you are then going to send them to replace the smaller RB1s in patrolling UK waters.....
For me fitting a SAAB X1 3D radar is a good step as is fitting a 40mm this maybe to some a bit over kill for there day to day role however if things kick off it will be to late to upgrade also having ships that can be redeployed somewhere else if needed is a good thing
lets look at what is going on now HMS Forth needed maintenance HMS Trent was sent to cover leaving a gap in the Caribbean. Now as I have also said I would go for 4 x 105m OPV's now if one these had to leave station for deep maintenance slotting in a B2 would be a good fit
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 18:01
For me the job of the RN home waters OPV's is to patrol UK water protect others doing there jobs and from time to time push out and work along side Allies to protect UK interests
And on that we can agree.
Although at times we were having to use the RB1s to do tasks e.g when you mentioned they were sent into the Baltic and then also the Med, purely because of the lack of other available RN escorts due to LIFEX / PIP refits or otherwise not available due to maintenance issues. Hopefully with T45s completing PIP and remaining T23s coming out of LIFEX, that lack of available excorts should eas until the T26 / T31 start being commissioned.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 18:26
For me fitting a SAAB X1 3D radar is a good step as is fitting a 40mm this maybe to some a bit over kill for there day to day role however if things kick off it will be to late to upgrade also having ships that can be redeployed somewhere else if needed is a good thing
lets look at what is going on now HMS Forth needed maintenance HMS Trent was sent to cover leaving a gap in the Caribbean. Now as I have also said I would go for 4 x 105m OPV's now if one these had to leave station for deep maintenance slotting in a B2 would be a good fit
And on the first paragraph I can agree that, IF RN had additional funds available, they would be sensible ugrades to get more out of the RB2s in their Ocean Patrol role e.g. when conducting anti-smuggling or even anti-piracy operations, and thus allow the RN's escorts to be used in more suitable escort roles.
On your closing statement, we are just going to have differing opinions, and that is ok.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
