Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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HMS Dauntless (D33) & HMS Dragon (D35)


HMS Defender (D36)


HMS Daring (D32)


HMS Duncan (D37)


HMS Diamond (D34)
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Interesting we seem to be going to an all Aster 30 configuration.

I don't see Sea Ceptor getting added to the 45's anytime soon.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Jdam wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 14:31

Interesting we seem to be going to an all Aster 30 configuration.

I don't see Sea Ceptor getting added to the 45's anytime soon.
That's one of the dumbest things I've read on here recently... what does upgrading the Aster 30s to Block 1 configuration have to do with already officially confirmed addition of 24 Sea Ceptor? It was clearly stated by a number of officials that in addition to the Sea Ceptor, the T45s would migrate to an all-Aster 30 configuration in the Sylver silos... IT'S EVEN IN THE FREAKIN' ARTICLE, if you bothered reading it... so, it's 48 Aster 30s (an undetermined number of which would be upgraded to Block 1) + 24 Sea Ceptor. Why the comment? Geez, people seem to enjoy being pessimistic and seeing ghosts where there aren't any... lighten up...
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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So the new missile load out could be 24 Aster 30 Blk-1 , 24 Aster 30 , 24 CAMM and 8 NSM so 72 AAW and 8 SSGW not bad getting there
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Maybe all of the missiles will be upgraded to Block 1.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 15:52 Maybe all of the missiles will be upgraded to Block 1.
The now fully funded Sea Viper Evolution (SV-E) Capability 1 will see the Type 45’s current Aster 30 ‘block 0’ missiles retrofitted to block 1 standard at the Munition Maintenance Installation Facility at Gosport. This involves new guidance software and electronics to enable the interception of ballistic missiles and a new dual AAW/BMD warhead to enhance the probability of Kill (pK) upon intercept.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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So yes they will?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Ron5 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 17:41So yes they will?
There is nothing to say they are keeping Block 0. I think a more interesting question is what happens to the Aster15s do they get thrown away or do they get refurbed with an added booster into more Aster 30 B1s.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Needed a bit more from me on that one when posting the news.

I was more interested in the point we were upgrading all of our missiles to the Aster 30 block 1 configuration before the ships have started to receive the retrofitted needed for Sea Ceptor, not that we were never getting Sea Ceptor on the 45's. I have not seen anything else on when the upgrades for Sea Ceptor was going to happen after the initial announcement, so my thinking "I don't see Sea Ceptor getting added to the 45's anytime soon" was a belief that this upgrade is some time away.

I would have thought both would have been done at the same time to continue to give both short and long range missile defence to ships.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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tomuk wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 17:58 There is nothing to say they are keeping Block 0. I think a more interesting question is what happens to the Aster15s do they get thrown away or do they get refurbed with an added booster into more Aster 30 B1s.
From article:
"It will also either see the shorter range Aster 15 missiles discarded or upgraded to Aster 30 B1 standard by replacing the first stage booster (currently the only difference between Aster 15 and 30). The gap in very short range (1.5-3km) engagement envelope created by eliminating Aster 15 will be filled by the addition of 24 Sea Ceptor missiles in the space originally left for 16 strike-length VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells."

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jdam wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 18:01 Needed a bit more from me on that one when posting the news.

I was more interested in the point we were upgrading all of our missiles to the Aster 30 block 1 configuration before the ships have started to receive the retrofitted needed for Sea Ceptor, not that we were never getting Sea Ceptor on the 45's. I have not seen anything else on when the upgrades for Sea Ceptor was going to happen after the initial announcement, so my thinking "I don't see Sea Ceptor getting added to the 45's anytime soon" was a belief that this upgrade is some time away.

I would have thought both would have been done at the same time to continue to give both short and long range missile defence to ships.
The opening line of the tweet states: "The Sea Viper Evolution (SV-E) project is now on contract.".

I would assume that the contract with Eurosam (i.e. MBDA France / MBDA Italy / Thales) for Aster is separate to the contract with MBDA UK for CAMM. I read it as simply confirming that contract for former is signed.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 20:46
tomuk wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 17:58 There is nothing to say they are keeping Block 0. I think a more interesting question is what happens to the Aster15s do they get thrown away or do they get refurbed with an added booster into more Aster 30 B1s.
From article:
"It will also either see the shorter range Aster 15 missiles discarded or upgraded to Aster 30 B1 standard by replacing the first stage booster (currently the only difference between Aster 15 and 30). The gap in very short range (1.5-3km) engagement envelope created by eliminating Aster 15 will be filled by the addition of 24 Sea Ceptor missiles in the space originally left for 16 strike-length VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells."
Why have you just repeated what I said? There is so far no definitive answer on what will happen with the Aster15s

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 15:37 The same information: from https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... o-2032.pdf

p.20 Capabilities not included in the 2022–2032 Plan

- Type 32 frigates and Multi Role Support Ships (MRSS): In July 2022 Navy Command withdrew its plans for Type 32 frigates and MRSS because of concerns about unaffordability. The revised costing profile is likely to be significantly higher.

- Enabling Landing Ship Dock Auxiliary: The enhancement option funded by the Integrated Review has been cancelled. The Ministry of Defence (the Department) decided to extend RFA Argus, based on the Navy deeming it cost-effective and offering greater utility.

- Type 83 destroyer: Given that the Department needs to replace the Type 45 destroyer between 2035 and 2038, it is unlikely that it will not need funding before 2032. The Plan does not include allocated funding as the project is in concept phase, meaning that detailed cost estimates and profiles are not yet available.

- Mine Hunting Capability Block 1 and Block 2 : Mine Hunting Capability equipment support remains unfunded.
So, T45 life extension program must come soon. It is must.

1: SeaViper enhancement = radar upkeep, Aster-30 blk1 upgrade, and what? Will it include also CAMM system integration?

2: 24-CAMM addition = when shall it happen?

3: Shall the 4.5' gun be replaced? (I think it must be). If yes, but what? (I prefer 57 mm gun, which will be with not only 3P, but also ALaMO anti-surface guided rounds (already fielded in USN), and possibly MAD-FIRES (under development).
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 01 Dec 2022, 15:04
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 15:37 The same information: from https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... o-2032.pdf

p.20 Capabilities not included in the 2022–2032 Plan

- Type 32 frigates and Multi Role Support Ships (MRSS): In July 2022 Navy Command withdrew its plans for Type 32 frigates and MRSS because of concerns about unaffordability. The revised costing profile is likely to be significantly higher.

- Enabling Landing Ship Dock Auxiliary: The enhancement option funded by the Integrated Review has been cancelled. The Ministry of Defence (the Department) decided to extend RFA Argus, based on the Navy deeming it cost-effective and offering greater utility.

- Type 83 destroyer: Given that the Department needs to replace the Type 45 destroyer between 2035 and 2038, it is unlikely that it will not need funding before 2032. The Plan does not include allocated funding as the project is in concept phase, meaning that detailed cost estimates and profiles are not yet available.

- Mine Hunting Capability Block 1 and Block 2 : Mine Hunting Capability equipment support remains unfunded.
So, T45 life extension program must come soon. It is must.

1: SeaViper enhancement = radar upkeep, Aster-30 blk1 upgrade, and what? Will it include also CAMM system integration?

2: 24-CAMM addition = when shall it happen?

3: Shall the 4.5' gun be replaced? (I think it must be). If yes, but what? (I prefer 57 mm gun, which will be with not only 3P, but also ALaMO anti-surface guided rounds (already fielded in USN), and possibly MAD-FIRES (under development).
No I don't think so. 2035 just isn't a realistic withdrawal date. The T45 have been alongside so much that the 'design' life is moot.

Secondly they are already getting in effect a LIFEX anyway. As well as PIP they are all getting deep maintenance including refurbs of radars, comms and sigint. Then going forward they are getting the CMS and Radar updates as part of SVE, CAMM is definitely a phase of his programme. They are also getting NSM as well.

The only issue is ongoing support of the 4.5 with reducing T23s there might be a larger pool of spares and ammo available but what is the expiry date on the ammo?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Not so much active...


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Three are currently active, …… FTSP means Diamond is undergoing “Routine” Maintenance, so still active.
Two vessels with PIP completed (one about to rejoin the active fleet) and another PIP underway.
From the awful low point of just a short while ago, it looks like significant progress to me, even though we can expect one of the currently “active” vessels to receive it’s PIP, once Dauntless rejoins the active fleet. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Getting the PIPs done before performing the Re-fits for the addition of Sea-Ceptor and the associated upgrades does seem as though it could be the correct path. :mrgreen:

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Further progress to Dauntless resuming active service.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-dau ... n-7-years/
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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They should continue to invest in upgrading PAAMS this class has so much more to give. Upgrade the S1850M and Sampson along with Aster Block 2.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Fr0sty125 wrote: 16 Feb 2023, 15:02 They should continue to invest in upgrading PAAMS this class has so much more to give. Upgrade the S1850M and Sampson along with Aster Block 2.
Doesn't aster block 2 need significantly larger VLS which might be problematic to retrofit.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 16 Feb 2023, 15:04 Doesn't aster block 2 need significantly larger VLS which might be problematic to retrofit.
Yes. Aster 30 Block 2 requires Sylver A70, the 'Strike Length' silo. T45 currently has A50 fitted. A70 is 2 metres longer. Upgrading all 48 silos on T45 to A70 over A50 would add around 24 tonnes as well, just in the silo alone.

If we don't move to A70 at the point of upgrade (which has never been mentioned) T45 will only ever be capable of fielding the Aster 30 1NT at most, no chance of getting the proposed 2 BMD variant in the future.

If the RN decided it wanted to field 2 BMD in the future....now would be a good time to insist on Mk.41 integration and ditch Sylver and go to Mk.41 Strike Length fleetwide for commonality...of course they won't...the worst of all worlds would be to keep A50 and limit our options, 2nd worst would be to pay to upgrade to A70, and still buy Mk41 for T26 and T31... and then be left with 2 different VL systems with incompatible stocks of missiles into the future...when we could have used the funds to standardise on either Sylver or Mk.41....personally I'd go to Sylver A70 and standardise T26 and T31 on it as well....1 VL standard and size across the fleet...we could use the redundant A50 at the MISC at Portsdown Hill and actually protect our most important naval base permanently....

Or we could just add 16x A70 for BMD where the Mk.41 was planned to go, lift out some A50 and replace with CAMM...2 blocks of 8 removed would give easily enough space for 24 CAMM...

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Timmymagic wrote: 16 Feb 2023, 17:06
Ron5 wrote: 16 Feb 2023, 15:04 Doesn't aster block 2 need significantly larger VLS which might be problematic to retrofit.
Yes. Aster 30 Block 2 requires Sylver A70, the 'Strike Length' silo. T45 currently has A50 fitted. A70 is 2 metres longer. Upgrading all 48 silos on T45 to A70 over A50 would add around 24 tonnes as well, just in the silo alone.

If we don't move to A70 at the point of upgrade (which has never been mentioned) T45 will only ever be capable of fielding the Aster 30 1NT at most, no chance of getting the proposed 2 BMD variant in the future.

If the RN decided it wanted to field 2 BMD in the future....now would be a good time to insist on Mk.41 integration and ditch Sylver and go to Mk.41 Strike Length fleetwide for commonality...of course they won't...the worst of all worlds would be to keep A50 and limit our options, 2nd worst would be to pay to upgrade to A70, and still buy Mk41 for T26 and T31... and then be left with 2 different VL systems with incompatible stocks of missiles into the future...when we could have used the funds to standardise on either Sylver or Mk.41....personally I'd go to Sylver A70 and standardise T26 and T31 on it as well....1 VL standard and size across the fleet...we could use the redundant A50 at the MISC at Portsdown Hill and actually protect our most important naval base permanently....

Or we could just add 16x A70 for BMD where the Mk.41 was planned to go, lift out some A50 and replace with CAMM...2 blocks of 8 removed would give easily enough space for 24 CAMM...
Is it planned that France and Italy will upgrade their Horizon and FREMM AAW to A70? As only the French ASW FREMMs have A70 to carry SCALP.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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By the time you have upgraded the ships with Sea Ceptre, added NSM and done the engine update, wont the Type 83 be a couple of years away? Putting them in dry dock again for the A70 upgrade would just be more time they are out of the water.

Focusing on CAAM and the current Aster 30 Block 1 upgrade for the type 45 give it a nice boost in capability using what we already have available.

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