Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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whitelancer
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by whitelancer »

Mortars were developed as a means of providing infantry with organic fire support, they were cheap, simple and effective, particularly against targets behind cover or in dead ground. However modern mortars which are rifled, breech loaded and possibly automatic loading as being discussed above are no longer cheap and simple. So when do mortars become howitzers?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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whitelancer wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 16:30 Mortars were developed as a means of providing infantry with organic fire support, they were cheap, simple and effective, particularly against targets behind cover or in dead ground. However modern mortars which are rifled, breech loaded and possibly automatic loading as being discussed above are no longer cheap and simple. So when do mortars become howitzers?
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

I really wonder how NEMO implementation on Boxer would look. There are only some renderings so far and I am not a fan of need to have raised roof on module, especially when compared to slick implementation on Patria AMV, especially considering that Patria and Boxer are similar height.

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whitelancer wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 16:30 Mortars were developed as a means of providing infantry with organic fire support, they were cheap, simple and effective, particularly against targets behind cover or in dead ground. However modern mortars which are rifled, breech loaded and possibly automatic loading as being discussed above are no longer cheap and simple. So when do mortars become howitzers?
With new precision and guided munitions, and request for better mobility, mortars are becoming high tech weapons. Which is ok, as every weapon develop with time. Another thing is there is now less need to equip large number of units with cheap fire support as armies tends to become smaller. So everyone is trying to give them the best support that is available to compensate for smaller numbers. Not to mention the need to also cover for far less artillery units then before and other support in general. So less numerous but more expensive mortars with better performance and mobility is preferable now.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 17:21 I really wonder how NEMO implementation on Boxer would look. There are only some renderings so far and I am not a fan of need to have raised roof on module, especially when compared to slick implementation on Patria AMV, especially considering that Patria and Boxer are similar height.
I’d hazard that that’s something to do with the way Boxer is Modular, restricting height and width inside the vehicle. The AMV is modular at the roof plate.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Ha Ha
You got me.
Perhaps I should have said the modern (20th century) interpretation of a mortar.

Anyway when you look at systems such as NEMO the capabilities they are after look more and more like those of a howitzer rather than a mortar.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

mr.fred wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 18:01 I’d hazard that that’s something to do with the way Boxer is Modular, restricting height and width inside the vehicle. The AMV is modular at the roof plate.
Yes, I think you are right.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Ron5 wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 16:22 Fire on the move is pretty neat too:

I think it's fantastic that the modern solution to an autoloader is 2 bods passing ammunition in the back. What's that in weight budget, 130-150kg each?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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whitelancer wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 18:10 Ha Ha
You got me.
Perhaps I should have said the modern (20th century) interpretation of a mortar.

Anyway when you look at systems such as NEMO the capabilities they are after look more and more like those of a howitzer rather than a mortar.
Just teasing, your point was a good one :thumbup:

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 18:27
Ron5 wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 16:22 Fire on the move is pretty neat too:

I think it's fantastic that the modern solution to an autoloader is 2 bods passing ammunition in the back. What's that in weight budget, 130-150kg each?
Makes the solution affordable just like it being on a 6x6. Same reason for cv90 Mjölner.

Not every company is like GD with Ajax, throwing piles of taxpayer money making an exquisite solution that's late, flawed, and budget busting.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Ron5 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 14:58 Not every company is like GD with Ajax, throwing piles of taxpayer money making an exquisite solution that's late, flawed, and budget busting.
You mean the MOD mandated GFE cannon?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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RunningStrong wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 14:59
Ron5 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 14:58 Not every company is like GD with Ajax, throwing piles of taxpayer money making an exquisite solution that's late, flawed, and budget busting.
You mean the MOD mandated GFE cannon?
Whataboutism at its finest.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Ron5 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 15:05 Whataboutism at its finest.
Yes, that's exactly what your post was.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Little J »

Although I think Tracked Boxer is worth investigating, I'll leave it to those who know what they are talking about to dissect his point of view :D

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Little J wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 20:29 Although I think Tracked Boxer is worth investigating, I'll leave it to those who know what they are talking about to dissect his point of view :D
I've got no idea where this magic money tree is that he'd be getting his funds from.
Pretty much anything is going to cost £5-10m each, depending on if it has a turret or not.
If you were suddenly flush with cash, re-instating WCSP ought to also be an option.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

With the numbers ordered and the roles it is intended t use it in, the Boer is going to bome the most important platform used by the British Army. Other platforms such as Challenger 3 and whatever replacs the AS-90 will amalgamate the Boxer by beng inducted into formations build around the five Boxer Battalions. Because of its importance it is vitl thet the Arm ensires the organisation of eacj of the five Boxer Mechanosed Infantry Battalions is such that they can carry out the multitude of tasks that will be allocated to them. The core of each battalion withll be the Battalions HQ and three Infatry Comanies each made up of a Company HQ and the Infantry Platoons and a Support Platoon. THe latter will hold the Companies heavySupport weapons such as HMGs or 40mm AGL

In additin to the three infantry COmpanies I would lke to see the Battalion contain a Cavalry/Recce Company, a Cuided Weapons COmapny and a SP Mortar COmpany as a minimu/ The Cavalry Comapny would comprise of Boxers equipped with the same turret as used by Ajax. Their role would be close Recce ands fire support for the Ifatry. The Guidd Weapons Cpmpanu would be madfe up of thre platoon each of four Coxers equiopped with a launcher for multiple long Ranger Guied weapons/STGW such as cround launched Brimstone. Each Plattone would be allocated to an Infatry COmany upon deployment.. Likwoae the Mortar Cmapny would allocate a Mortar Platton of four Boers equipped with the AMS 1`20mmm Mortar Urret to each Infantry COpany together with tewoo resupply vehicles., The Air Defnecc Company is the biggest change from curretnt organisations. With the great increase in the use of UAVs the BAttalion needs w way to counter these. THe best sdolution would b a platfom that combines a SHRD missile system like Starstreak and a medium calibre (23mm to 35mm) autocannon together with effective optivael and radar sefire control measures.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Lord Jim wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 03:23 In additin to the three infantry COmpanies I would lke to see the Battalion contain a Cavalry/Recce Company, a Cuided Weapons COmapny and a SP Mortar COmpany as a minimu/ The Cavalry Comapny would comprise of Boxers equipped with the same turret as used by Ajax. Their role would be close Recce ands fire support for the Ifatry. The Guidd Weapons Cpmpanu would be madfe up of thre platoon each of four Coxers equiopped with a launcher for multiple long Ranger Guied weapons/STGW such as cround launched Brimstone. Each Plattone would be allocated to an Infatry COmany upon deployment.. Likwoae the Mortar Cmapny would allocate a Mortar Platton of four Boers equipped with the AMS 1`20mmm Mortar Urret to each Infantry COpany together with tewoo resupply vehicles., The Air Defnecc Company is the biggest change from curretnt organisations. With the great increase in the use of UAVs the BAttalion needs w way to counter these. THe best sdolution would b a platfom that combines a SHRD missile system like Starstreak and a medium calibre (23mm to 35mm) autocannon together with effective optivael and radar sefire control measures.
I don't think it is a good idea of over-burdening mechanised battalion by increasing current platoons in it to company level. Mortar, Recce and AT platoons are enough, as in majority situations, there will be no need for more than that, and if there is a need for increased support, this could be provided by other units, like RA or even TA. Adding AA/UAV counter platoon to support company, or AA/UAV counter section to infantry company would be a good idea tho.

Considering the recce version of Boxer, I think that. at least initially, it would be more like recce Stryker M1127 Reconnaissance Vehicle, instead of Boxer CRV, meaning it would probably not have a turret. But that is just my opinion, who knows, maybe the Army pool some surprise there.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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For me as said I would like to see each of the APC & C&C vehicles fitted with Javelin and then have what was the AT platoon move to a over watch platoon Meaning the Maneouvre support company would have

1 x SP mortar platoon
1 x Over watch Platoon
1 x Assault Pioneer Platoon
1 x Recce Platoon

We could then add 1 x Air defence Platoon to this

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

Tempest414 wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 11:34 For me as said I would like to see each of the APC & C&C vehicles fitted with Javelin and then have what was the AT platoon move to a over watch platoon Meaning the Maneouvre support company would have

1 x SP mortar platoon
1 x Over watch Platoon
1 x Assault Pioneer Platoon
1 x Recce Platoon

We could then add 1 x Air defence Platoon to this
What's an overwatch platoon?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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mr.fred wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 21:19
Tempest414 wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 11:34 For me as said I would like to see each of the APC & C&C vehicles fitted with Javelin and then have what was the AT platoon move to a over watch platoon Meaning the Maneouvre support company would have

1 x SP mortar platoon
1 x Over watch Platoon
1 x Assault Pioneer Platoon
1 x Recce Platoon

We could then add 1 x Air defence Platoon to this
What's an overwatch platoon?
It is in my head but my thinking is if the other vehicles like the APC's are carrying Javelin on there RWS's then the new over watch Platoon would carry say 16 ready fire Hero 120 Loitering weapons per vehicle giving each unit organic search and strike over its area of operations

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

The AT/Overwatch Platoon/Company needs a weapon system with good range, ideally a man in the loop option, all weather capability and be able to take out peer level MBTs with a single munition. That, as far as I am concerned it the requirement and any system that meets this is fine by me. The key thing for me with Boxer is the Battalions equipped with it need to hav e far greater fire power than current Battalions. I am fine with the APCs and Command vehicles being armed iwith a RWS mounting a HMG or AGL together with a Javelin, with hopefully three or four reloads inside. I do see the need foir a cavalry variant, similar in role to the Australian Army's Boxer CRV, possibly using the same turret as Boxer. These would provide close recce for the respective Battle Group as well as providing direct fire support. For a bigger bang, equipping the Mortar Platoon/Company with a Boxer variant mounting the AMOS turret containing a breach loading 120mm Mortar.

Given the substantial use of UAS in recent and ongoing conflicts each Mechanised Infantry Battalion MUST have integral VSHORAD systems, ideally using both gun and missile, THE Army's Sky Sabre is an effective weapon but we are not going to have anywhere near the number we actually need, and these will be mainly used to protect high value locations. It is also not a fire on the move system which s what the Battle Groups need. There are many OTS options available, but any system chosen must haver Radar and IRST guidance capability as well as vey good EO sights., One option I rather like is following the train of thought used by the Swedish Army when they developed the SPAAA variant of their CV-90, basing it heavily on the IFV variant. I would like a similar approach taken with the Ajax turret, adding the additional FCS and the neccessary ammunition variety with two to four Starstreak or LMM mounted on the same turret.


With the whole Battalions being linked by an advanced digital network, the support platoons/Companies with be able to deplol with far greater dispersion yet still be able to bring the maximum fire power to bear when needed, The same obviously goes for the Mechanised Infantry Platoons, and Companies.], as well as units attached to the formation.

Up ahead fo the Mechanised Battle Groups will be the BCT's recce screen provided by the Recce Regiment equipped with the Ajax family of AFVs. These will pass back real time situational awareness allowing the Battle Groups to know where the enemy is strongest and where he is weakest, something they can exploit. And we need the enhanced Infantry Battalions from which the Battle Groups would be formed to have he necssary firepower, mobility, speed and resilience to achieve this regardless of what units are attached .

In fact I would suggest that in addition to the two Heavy BCTs and two Light BCTs a Medium BCT should be formed. Such a formation would be based around four mechanised Infantry Battalions mounted in Boxer variants. This formation would be useful in both supporting the Heavy BCTs as well as providing heavier support for the Light BCTs. Detachments for this BCT would also be very suitable to provide support to the Army's new Ranger formations as well as its High Readiness uits, The lower logistical tail required by Boxer together with its ability to slef deploy over long ditances fgacilitate this rather nicely.

All of the above shows that the Army has, with Boxer probably the best wheeled AFV currently in production, with the best protection, mobility and flexibility with its Mission Module modular system. We will have on shore manufacturing of whole platform and we should take advantage of this and double down on it. With Boxer we have a platform with plenty of room for growth and the horse power to keep it moving at the required speed. It should be cheaper to operate than Warrior, and training and maintenance should also be simpler. It is just a shame we pulled out of the Boxer programme due to a desire to fly things around in C-130J Hercules, as daft ide that has been realised as such thank goodness.

So I would like to see sufficient Boxers ordered to equip eight Mechanised Infantry Battalions plus a couple of hundred vehicles to replace the FV432 in certain units and roles. If the MRV(P) ever enters service it would be o "Rear" area operations in Peer level high intensity conflicts, though having a greater front line role on lesser conflict, equipping at leat one of the Light BCTs.

My oter areas of concern regarding Boxer though is the slow pace of the programme. The first Battalions id not due to be operational until late in 2025, with the remainder being stood up one per year. In my view I wouldn't mind if the first two Battalions we issued Boxers from the German production line to speed up their arrival. FOr me all the Army's planned procurement programmes for Boxer, Ajax, Challenger 3, new tube and rocket artillery amongst others should aim to be fully stood up and deployable by the end of 2030 at the latest, ending the first Ten Year Plan. This should be followed by the next that would includd a long range GD+BAD systems such as Patriot, or SAMP-T being purchased with its inherent ABM capabilities as linked in to both the Sky Sabre and Battalion level VSHORAD systems to produce an integrated air defence system also being kyed by the E-7 and naval platforms. Additional artillery systems and new personal weapons for the Infantry and vehicle crews.. Ultra light 4x4 platforms for the Airmobile formations as well as UGVs for both them and the Light BCTs. A programme for the replacement of the Challenger 3 would also fall within this latter timeframe with the resultant platform entering service towards the end of the 2030s.

Through all this, things will revolve around the mechanised Infantry Battalions, both complimenting them and enhancing them at the same time. We must make a deliberate effort to maximise the potential of he Boxer platform, and reap the resultant benefits.

I will now halt this disorganized soap box initiative and yield the floor to someone else!
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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It is great to have you back on form Jim
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Boxer with NEMO 120mm

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Another image of Boxer NEMO

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

Why would you be surprised? This deal was pretty obvious since months.

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