Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Caribbean wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 23:54 Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
To be fair the Mk-56 cells on the IH class are were the new boat bay will be fitted on Type 31 but yes the 32 Mk-41 cells and 16 NSM should be no problem this would still allow type 31 to carry 32 CAMM , 16 NSM and still have 24 cells free when we compare this to type 26 which could have 48 CAMM , 16 NSM and have 24 MK-41 cells free it is still very good and so much more than we might still get which is 12 CAMM

If we could get to 1 x 57mm , 2 x40mm , 32 Mk-41 cells and 8 x NSM plus S2170 SSTD system I would be very happy when for a long time the talk has been about only having a 57mm , 2 x 40mm and 12 CAMM

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

JohnM wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:40
tomuk wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:36
NickC wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 10:47
tomuk wrote: 31 May 2023, 20:21
NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.
My view is that if the Admirals had specified Mk41s originally and not leaving it until near 2 and a half years into the contract they have no doubt wasted £millions in additional costs, anyone disagree?
Thx for the good news that the VLS foundations built in, but no info on T31 if space was just left vacant (as in T45 and used as gym) or allocated to other uses that will need to be changed, but never doubted the ships MTU DGs had enough surplus power (though less powerful than the Caterpillar DG's fitted in the IH class) and enough surplus water tankage for the deluge ops and sprinklers for fitting the Mk41s, as said it would be the unknown additional cost for any modifications and for installing the services and fitting the Mk41s.
Why are you looking for issues? The parent IH is fitted with Mk41 in the same location, the 'current' T31 config has CAMM mushroom launchers in the Mk41 location, the manufacturer says that the platform is flexible and Mk41 is a specific part of this modularity, the Polish version has Mk41, the former First Sea Lord said the RN were thinking of fitting Mk41 previously, the current First Sea Lord has stated it is the RNs intention to fit Mk41. Will it cost ore than the previous CAMM baseline? yes Are the additional costs unknown or excessive? Id rather think that they aren't.
Thank you!! Some people just can't resist finding problems everywhere... it's not that complicated or expensive to add MK41 immediately to ALL T31s, including the first one... it'll be floated off later this year and then it will be fitting for the next two years and be delivered to the RN in 2025. That's an ENORMITY of time to install MK41 launchers... Geez...

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

NickC wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 13:52
JohnM wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:40
tomuk wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:36
NickC wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 10:47
tomuk wrote: 31 May 2023, 20:21
NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.
My view is that if the Admirals had specified Mk41s originally and not leaving it until near 2 and a half years into the contract they have no doubt wasted £millions in additional costs, anyone disagree?
Thx for the good news that the VLS foundations built in, but no info on T31 if space was just left vacant (as in T45 and used as gym) or allocated to other uses that will need to be changed, but never doubted the ships MTU DGs had enough surplus power (though less powerful than the Caterpillar DG's fitted in the IH class) and enough surplus water tankage for the deluge ops and sprinklers for fitting the Mk41s, as said it would be the unknown additional cost for any modifications and for installing the services and fitting the Mk41s.
Why are you looking for issues? The parent IH is fitted with Mk41 in the same location, the 'current' T31 config has CAMM mushroom launchers in the Mk41 location, the manufacturer says that the platform is flexible and Mk41 is a specific part of this modularity, the Polish version has Mk41, the former First Sea Lord said the RN were thinking of fitting Mk41 previously, the current First Sea Lord has stated it is the RNs intention to fit Mk41. Will it cost ore than the previous CAMM baseline? yes Are the additional costs unknown or excessive? Id rather think that they aren't.
Thank you!! Some people just can't resist finding problems everywhere... it's not that complicated or expensive to add MK41 immediately to ALL T31s, including the first one... it'll be floated off later this year and then it will be fitting for the next two years and be delivered to the RN in 2025. That's an ENORMITY of time to install MK41 launchers... Geez...
Apologies not sure what happened above, my comment

My view is that if the Admirals had specified Mk41s originally and not leaving it until near 2 and a half years into the contract they have no doubt wasted £millions in additional costs, anyone disagree?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

I disagree… the RN knew it had to go minimalistic to get the program approved, and they did… the AH 140 design is ready from the outset to take MK41, so no, I don’t think any extra money will be spent due to only announcing MK41 now as opposed to when the competition happened… everyone knew there would an enormous window of time to get the upgrades announced, if the money could be found, as apparently it has been…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
don't be captious.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Caribbean wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 23:54 Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
Its not the matter of doable or not. Is it rapidly doable or not (so that Mk41 can be inserted on hull-1,2,3,4,5 on T31), and with what cost. For example, T45 PIP is easy, why it took so long? T45 CAMM addition is easy, why it took so long?

Adding Mk.41 on T31 is "easy", how long it will take?

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

JohnM wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:00 I disagree… the RN knew it had to go minimalistic to get the program approved, and they did… the AH 140 design is ready from the outset to take MK41, so no, I don’t think any extra money will be spent due to only announcing MK41 now as opposed to when the competition happened… everyone knew there would an enormous window of time to get the upgrades announced, if the money could be found, as apparently it has been…
Note of caution here because words are important.

What was said in relation to T31 and Mk41 was: "it is our intention to" fit them.

It's not a done deal. It's an intention - at some point. Don't presume the money has been found.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 15:16
Caribbean wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 23:54 Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
Its not the matter of doable or not. Is it rapidly doable or not (so that Mk41 can be inserted on hull-1,2,3,4,5 on T31), and with what cost. For example, T45 PIP is easy, why it took so long? T45 CAMM addition is easy, why it took so long?

Adding Mk.41 on T31 is "easy", how long it will take?
I do have that concern. There are several things that RN has talked about for which we are awaiting a definitive timescale for when the work will be carried out, let alone actually doing the work already.

Adding CAMM to T45 and adding NSM to T45 / T23 comes to mind even if looking at existing ships. Especialy when those ships were already out of the water undergoing PIP / LIFEX!!

My big question on T31 upgrades is exactly when these can be carried out given their Fixed Price Contract stopping any adjustments.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by S M H »

If the seats are fitted for the MK 41 on construction rather than type 45 gim they could be smart procurement
Fitting the silos as part of a weapons insertion post delivery. As long as they don't repeat the 30 mm mounts on the carrier's. Smart procurement if the MOD can get refurbished silos ex usn.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 15:16
Caribbean wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 23:54 Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
Its not the matter of doable or not. Is it rapidly doable or not (so that Mk41 can be inserted on hull-1,2,3,4,5 on T31), and with what cost. For example, T45 PIP is easy, why it took so long? T45 CAMM addition is easy, why it took so long?

Adding Mk.41 on T31 is "easy", how long it will take?
Hi Donald-san - my short answer would be "As long as it takes to find the money". That is the only thing holding any of this stuff up.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Caribbean wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 22:17
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 15:16
Caribbean wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 23:54 Oh good Lord, what makes people think that a 6000 t ship, based on a design that can already handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 Mk56 tubes and 16 Harpoon deck-mounted launchers CAN'T handle 32 Mk41 tubes, 24 CAMM tubes and 16 NSM

FFS - get real folks
Its not the matter of doable or not. Is it rapidly doable or not (so that Mk41 can be inserted on hull-1,2,3,4,5 on T31), and with what cost. For example, T45 PIP is easy, why it took so long? T45 CAMM addition is easy, why it took so long?

Adding Mk.41 on T31 is "easy", how long it will take?
Hi Donald-san - my short answer would be "As long as it takes to find the money". That is the only thing holding any of this stuff up.
My assumption.

Year-1: money found. Start assessment of all detailed design (how to rip-off CAMM launchers if needed, anyway not difficult or not needed), take off wiring for CAMM (doable), adding wiring, firefighting sensors and other lines (as shall be copied from IH-class detailed design doable (if it complies with RN standard, easy, if not, will take time).
Also, order Mk.41 VLS.

Year-2: continue. Write down all the "detailed design" (all the parts list down to a single screw, process, verification and certification plan). Also need to adjust the T31 hull build process to accommodate timing and (appropriate) man-power for this "added work"

Year-3: Mk.41 VLS delivery and work start.

In Navylookout article, NAB-san said, "shall be doable only for hull-4 and 5" (or alike). I have the same feeling.

Note that we are NOT YET at year-1. No money assigned yet.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

There has been talk of Mk41 for 18 months now so by the time Type 31 is handed over for fit out in Dec it would be 2 years so of the work has been going on they can be fitted into hull one

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 12:01 There has been talk of Mk41 for 18 months now so by the time Type 31 is handed over for fit out in Dec it would be 2 years so of the work has been going on they can be fitted into hull one
They should be fitted from Hull One but if that isn’t possible they must be fitted to Hull Three onwards. Build two batches of 5 and sell the first two and keep the 8 that are fully equipped.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 12:01 There has been talk of Mk41 for 18 months now so by the time Type 31 is handed over for fit out in Dec it would be 2 years so of the work has been going on they can be fitted into hull one
Detailed design needs costs. Ml41 VLS need lead time before delivery. Without contract = money, nothing will proceed.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 19:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
The Type 31's are a wholly Geo Osborne creation. As is their budget and builder.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:05
tomuk wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 19:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
The Type 31's are a wholly Geo Osborne creation. As is their budget and builder.
Then we must thank him for giving the RN a good GP frigate for 1/3 the cost of Type 26 :lol:
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:05
tomuk wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 19:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
The Type 31's are a wholly Geo Osborne creation. As is their budget and builder.
Does it really? Or maybe it is somewhat a return to the Type 27 C2 of the C1\C2\C3 ideas floating around at least five or six years before he was chancellor.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 19:21
Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:05
tomuk wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 19:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
The Type 31's are a wholly Geo Osborne creation. As is their budget and builder.
Does it really? Or maybe it is somewhat a return to the Type 27 C2 of the C1\C2\C3 ideas floating around at least five or six years before he was chancellor.
Yes, yes it does. The Navy wanted the T26 GP. Geo refused to foot the bill.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 13:33
tomuk wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 19:21
Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:05
tomuk wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 19:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 14:15 Incorrect. The budget was fixed by Geo Osborne and his merry troupe of Whitehall warriors in the Treasury. Lot's of good and useful stuff did not fit that budget. Hence the type 31's only being useful for fighting pirates and flying its flag while hosting embassy parties.
George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years. The template of having 8 full fat frigates and 5 GP frigates may have been set in the 2015 SDSR under his watch but innumerable tides have ebbed and flowed since then.
The Type 31's are a wholly Geo Osborne creation. As is their budget and builder.
Does it really? Or maybe it is somewhat a return to the Type 27 C2 of the C1\C2\C3 ideas floating around at least five or six years before he was chancellor.
Yes, yes it does. The Navy wanted the T26 GP. Geo refused to foot the bill.
As I have said already George Osbourne hasn't been chancellor for seven years, after being editor of the Evening standard he is now a media pundit. He is as relevant as Tim Geithner or Jack Lew.

If the RN didn't want T31 it has had seven years to do something different. It appears they quite like the T31 wanting to order a second batch T32 and adding Mk41 to it.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

A silly attempt to rewrite history.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 13:17 A silly attempt to rewrite history.
I'm not rewriting history George Osbourne and the treasury were front and centre for the 2015 SDSR which lead to T31. What I'm saying is that that was eight years, six chancellors, four prime ministers, an integrated review and integrated review refresh and umpteen world events ago. But still the RN have persisted with T31 so they must be somewhat content with what they are getting.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

The type 31 contract wasn’t signed until 2019 3 years after Osborne left government

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