F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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NickC
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by NickC »

A $491 million contract awarded to BAE Systems Inc by Lockheed for an upgraded EW system AN/ASQ-239. The next-generation Storm EW spectrum warfare suite is built on a common core architecture with significantly upgraded hardware and software and can be upgraded in the field with software update for the future Block 4 Lot 17+ aircraft, production a/c coming off the production line sometime in late 2025/6?

New, high-performance sensors will boost the system’s ability to detect difficult-to-observe threats and more threats simultaneously.
The advanced EW capabilities will offer greater situational awareness, enhanced survivability and increased capabilities to counter modern threats, and is upgradable to address evolving threats with significantly upgraded hardware and software that improves sensing and signal-processing capabilities. presumably able to respond/jam to new tracking radar threats on the fly.

3 Apr 2023 PR
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/m ... ng-threats


mr.fred
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mr.fred »

I'm always dismayed about how much difficulty people seem to have with just-in-time and similar philosophies.

The problems described in the article is nothing to do with just-in-time. In that system you hold sufficient stocks to cover your needs until your supply chain can furnish more, then you work with your supply chain to make sure that they can deliver in time so you can reduce your stocks. This is just what you want with an aircraft that will be in service for decades and repeatedly upgraded, since it means that you won't be left holding large stocks of obsolete parts.
If your stocks aren't covering your needs, then you've got one of those steps wrong. You've estimated your need incorrectly, you've got your spares levels wrong and/or you've not got the supply chain you need.

Blaming just-in-time is a cop out that fails to acknowledge what the real problem is.
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Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

mr.fred wrote: 13 Apr 2023, 20:49 The problems described in the article is nothing to do with just-in-time. In that system you hold sufficient stocks to cover your needs until your supply chain can furnish more, then you work with your supply chain to make sure that they can deliver in time so you can reduce your stocks.
Exactly. It's also a question of risk. You balance the risk of having to shut production/operations down vs the cost of having money tied up in stocks. The military don't seem to be able to balance that risk in contracts sufficiently well (albeit forced by Treasuries to minimise stock holdings). Its the same with munition holdings, you either hold enough to defeat the threats you face or you hold enough that will keep you fighting until production can keep you continuously supplied with what you need. We can clearly see with the situation with artillery stocks that the West has neglected both sides of that equation.

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Caribbean
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Caribbean »

Just-in-time is basically just Inventory Control, with minimal allowance for changes to demand. It relies on automated ordering, minimised variation in order quantities over time (or where demand is cyclical, variation according to a predictable pattern). Excellent for continuous process industries, production-line manufacturers etc.

Basically. it works well for predictable workloads. It does not work well in circumstances where usage of an item may vary from minimal levels to greater than the capacity of the supplier within days.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Caribbean wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:56 Just-in-time is basically just Inventory Control, with minimal allowance for changes to demand. It relies on automated ordering, minimised variation in order quantities over time (or where demand is cyclical, variation according to a predictable pattern). Excellent for continuous process industries, production-line manufacturers etc.

Basically. it works well for predictable workloads. It does not work well in circumstances where usage of an item may vary from minimal levels to greater than the capacity of the supplier within days.
And not for one where purchase orders enter a bureaucratic nightmare of endless governance...

new guy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-04-28/
US DoD orders 126 F-35 for $7.8bn.
thats $62m per jet
or todays conversion rate, £50m. surely whe have £5bn around to order 100? :D

new guy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

new guy wrote: 30 Apr 2023, 22:05 https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-04-28/
US DoD orders 126 F-35 for $7.8bn.
thats $62m per jet
or todays conversion rate, £50m. surely whe have £5bn around to order 100? :D
Or should I say 66 considering -B and not as in the case above of mix A,B,C.
(Yes I know MoD has a entirely different ordering method, with +26 last forcasted as a £6.4bn deal, but lets pretend)
so,
50 for 2 new squadrons
6 as to retire, replace,then fill the gap of the 3 US trainer ones.
4 to fill the previous order to full 50
6 as spears

resultant is
4x 25 F-35B squadrons
1x 3 F-35B US training squadron
1x 6 or less F-35B spare squadron
1x 1+ F-35B at the bottom of the sea squadron
1x 3 F-35B Retired/ stored for later use squadron

Then we just need to build a F-35B maintenance facility that in 15 years starts building 4 new ones a year + attrition rate and boom! Sustainment. Chuck a couple Liftfan 2.0, XA100, block 2 billion software upgrade, tempest radar, tempest compatibility, new RAM over the years and then ......

new guy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

new guy wrote: 30 Apr 2023, 22:05 https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-04-28/
US DoD orders 126 F-35 for $7.8bn.
thats $62m per jet
or todays conversion rate, £50m. surely whe have £5bn around to order 100? :D
Or should I say 66 considering -B and not as in the case above of mix A,B,C.
(Yes I know MoD has a entirely different ordering method, with +26 last forcasted as a £6.4bn deal, but lets pretend)
so,
50 for 2 new squadrons
6 as to retire, replace,then fill the gap of the 3 US trainer ones.
4 to fill the previous order to full 50
6 as spears

resultant is
4x 25 F-35B squadrons
1x 3 F-35B US training squadron
1x 6 or less F-35B spare squadron
1x 1+ F-35B at the bottom of the sea squadron
1x 3 F-35B Retired/ stored for later use squadron

Then we just need to build a F-35B maintenance facility that in 15 years starts building 4 new ones a year + attrition rate and boom! Sustainment. Chuck a couple Liftfan 2.0, XA100, block 2 billion software upgrade, tempest radar, tempest compatibility, new RAM over the years and then ......

new guy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

Like I said before, but with UKDJ article

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/average ... -aircraft/


More accurately £50m. so with previous MoD statement saying new order would cost £6.7bn, that would get us 134 in US DoD terms.

SW1
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/06 ... ware-woes/

The F-35′s Technology Refresh 3 effort — a slate of improvements that aim to give the fighter better displays, computer memory and processing power — was originally due this past April. TR-3 is necessary before the F-35 can receive a more expansive modernization known as Block 4, which will allow the fighter to carry more long-range precision weapons, improve its electronic warfare capability and provide better target recognition.

The TR-3 schedule has slipped considerably, and the F-35 Joint Program Office is now expecting it to arrive no early than this December — and perhaps as late as April 2024, a full year behind schedule.

Starting later this summer, F-35 aircraft coming off the production line with TR-3 hardware will not be accepted until relevant combat capability is validated in accordance with our users’ expectations,” JPO spokesman Russ Goemaere said in an email. “The JPO and Lockheed Martin will ensure these aircraft are safely and securely stored until [acceptance] occurs.”

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

We should be due the arrival of another 3 x F-35B in a short time....

All 3 have been flying, with the last 2 flying in April. Usually a couple of months after first flight the cross-Atlantic delivery flight happens...watch out for a Voyager flying over.

That will bring the total delivered to the UK at 33. This includes the 3 x ITF test aircraft that are permanently based at Edwards AFB in the US, and regrettably the a/c lost off HMS Queen Elizabeth. This will mean there are 29 a/c based at Marham.

There are also a further 4 x F-35B (ZM168 to ZM171) that should be delivered to the UK this year. The final 2 of these aircraft (ZM170 and ZM171) will be the only 2 from Lot 15. These will be the first received with the TR3 processor so should just be a minor software upgrade to reach Block IV.

Given the usual UK delivery cadence I'd expect the above delivery to arrive November, don't think any of these aircraft have had their first flights yet.

After that 4 x a/c should arrive in 2024, with 7 x a/c arriving in 2025. The final 7 will be in the Lot 17 configuration, fully Block IV capable with additional EW antenna. This may well be the standard the RAF wants to upgrade the rest of the fleet to eventually.
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Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Timmymagic wrote: 13 Jun 2023, 10:28 The final 2 of these aircraft (ZM170 and ZM171) will be the only 2 from Lot 15. These will be the first received with the TR3 processor so should just be a minor software upgrade to reach Block IV.
Just to add....given the recently announced move by the US to halt deliveries of Lot 15 TR-3 equipped aircraft until the software issues are resolved, which may be in spring/early summer 2024, the actual delivery/handover of these aircraft must therefore be in doubt. It may be that we only receive the 2 remaining Lot 14 a/c in the November delivery, with the 2 x Lot 15 a/c rolled into 2024. Given that so far the RAF seems to induct 3-4 aircraft at a time it might mean that the 2024 deliveries increase from 4 to 6 (including the delayed 2 from 2023) and get split into 2 deliveries in June/July then November 24. Shouldn't affect the actual production of the airframes or the 7 a/c in 2025 however.

All this does have an effect on the standup of Sqn's though...particularly 809 NAS which I suspect will not be fully operational until mid 2026 at the earliest. There just won't be the airframes available until then. If the additional order of 26/27 a/c goes ahead and is delivered from 2026-2030ish also don't be expecting 2 additional operational squadrons to suddenly appear either....the number of aircraft available will probably stay around the 40 a/c mark across the late 2020's as upgrades to Block IV for the older a/c have to take place. A lot will depend on the upgrade route that the RAF/RN choose, if it, fingers crossed, involves upgrade to the Lot 17 standard across the board, new DAS and (hopefully) the upgrades to F135 and advanced EOTS it could take some time...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by tomuk »

Timmymagic wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 13:59
Timmymagic wrote: 13 Jun 2023, 10:28 The final 2 of these aircraft (ZM170 and ZM171) will be the only 2 from Lot 15. These will be the first received with the TR3 processor so should just be a minor software upgrade to reach Block IV.
Just to add....given the recently announced move by the US to halt deliveries of Lot 15 TR-3 equipped aircraft until the software issues are resolved, which may be in spring/early summer 2024, the actual delivery/handover of these aircraft must therefore be in doubt. It may be that we only receive the 2 remaining Lot 14 a/c in the November delivery, with the 2 x Lot 15 a/c rolled into 2024. Given that so far the RAF seems to induct 3-4 aircraft at a time it might mean that the 2024 deliveries increase from 4 to 6 (including the delayed 2 from 2023) and get split into 2 deliveries in June/July then November 24. Shouldn't affect the actual production of the airframes or the 7 a/c in 2025 however.

All this does have an effect on the standup of Sqn's though...particularly 809 NAS which I suspect will not be fully operational until mid 2026 at the earliest. There just won't be the airframes available until then. If the additional order of 26/27 a/c goes ahead and is delivered from 2026-2030ish also don't be expecting 2 additional operational squadrons to suddenly appear either....the number of aircraft available will probably stay around the 40 a/c mark across the late 2020's as upgrades to Block IV for the older a/c have to take place. A lot will depend on the upgrade route that the RAF/RN choose, if it, fingers crossed, involves upgrade to the Lot 17 standard across the board, new DAS and (hopefully) the upgrades to F135 and advanced EOTS it could take some time...
When do we have to pay for them? If the delays also delay the payments that could have un intended consequences in terms of the old annual cash budgeting.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

tomuk wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 16:10 When do we have to pay for them? If the delays also delay the payments that could have un intended consequences in terms of the old annual cash budgeting.
I've not seen the contract I'm afraid. There will likely be some element of staged payments, with final delivery payments.

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

I suspect the slowdown is quite useful in some ways, it's not like they can be used much.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

30(-4) to 32 (-4)
-4 being 1 crashed and 3 in US. 16 more to go for the rest of this year and the next two. hopefully the next batch of (only) 26 is ordered soon.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

new guy wrote: 23 Jun 2023, 16:02 30(-4) to 32 (-4)
-4 being 1 crashed and 3 in US. 16 more to go for the rest of this year and the next two. hopefully the next batch of (only) 26 is ordered soon.
This is a little odd...because there is another in the US that hasn't flown over....BK-31 (ZM165) was built before the 2 delivered yesterday....so should have arrived at the same time, perhaps it had a technical fault...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Bring Deeps »

Possible uses of MQ 25 Stingray by US Marines as a land based force enabler for the F35B.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... do-pacific

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

One thing I've not seen mentioned is what the UK will be doing regarding the new F-35 radar, the AN/APG-85....it arrives on new production F-35 from Lot 17 onwards...from some articles it appears it will be on ALL aircraft from Lot 17 onwards...

No-one seems to know if its just an upgraded AN-APG-81 with GaN antenna or a wholly new radar, my personel bet is an upgrade....

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f ... initiative

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Bring Deeps wrote: 08 Jul 2023, 08:32 Possible uses of MQ 25 Stingray by US Marines as a land based force enabler for the F35B.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... do-pacific
The author of this article is sadly misinformed.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 08 Jul 2023, 10:26 One thing I've not seen mentioned is what the UK will be doing regarding the new F-35 radar, the AN/APG-85....it arrives on new production F-35 from Lot 17 onwards...from some articles it appears it will be on ALL aircraft from Lot 17 onwards...

No-one seems to know if its just an upgraded AN-APG-81 with GaN antenna or a wholly new radar, my personel bet is an upgrade....

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f ... initiative
If it's anything like Typhoon radar upgrade, we will replace about a quarter of them!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ahem...suspect spare parts supply was the issue here...


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

Spot on job for SGF.

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