Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Good news

The Royal Navy is calling the new tactical uncrewed air system “Peregrine,” which it says has strong historic links to the Fleet Air Arm



Bit about The Peregrine system




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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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It is anticipated that the solution will permanently embark in shipping (including Type 23/Type 31/Type 45/LSDA/AO)


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-lan ... ial-drone/

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Image
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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ex HMS Monmouth in Portsmouth Harbour

(Gosport Aerial Phtography) 2nd March 2023
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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HMS Montrose decommissioned today.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Impressive ....


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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A good movie to watch for all those promoting the use of drone boats & small UAV's for ASW.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Ron5 wrote: 22 Apr 2023, 13:25 A good movie to watch for all those promoting the use of drone boats & small UAV's for ASW.
Not sure. I understand ARCIMS USVs can operate in this weather. Of course, they cannot maneuver this fast, but still can tow their LFAPS system. There is no crew who shall get VERY exhausted if on a small (11-m) boat at this weather.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

HMS Westminsters future in doubt :-

https://www.navylookout.com/hms-westmin ... -in-doubt/

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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jonas wrote: 30 May 2023, 10:01 HMS Westminsters future in doubt :-

https://www.navylookout.com/hms-westmin ... -in-doubt/
Just shows how much we’ve flogged these platforms and unlikely to be an isolated incident. The delay in starting the T26 is really starting to bite.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Repulse wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:44
jonas wrote: 30 May 2023, 10:01 HMS Westminsters future in doubt :-

https://www.navylookout.com/hms-westmin ... -in-doubt/
Just shows how much we’ve flogged these platforms and unlikely to be an isolated incident. The delay in starting the T26 is really starting to bite.
From memory the last two T23s to be retired (Monmouth and Montrose) were GP frigates. The other GP frigates are fullfilling Operation Kipion in the Gulf (Lancaster) undergoing post-Lifex refit (Argyll) and recently carrying out FOST (Iron Duke). The RN has been able to able to cope so far with so few GP frigates as using RB2's for WIGS / FIGS etc and also contributing to less policing missions with allies (now just the aforementioned Operation Kipion).

But if Westminster is retired early, that would mean losing the first of the 8*T23 ASW, with two in LIFEX. leaving just 5*T23 ASW to do all the misions such as TAPS, two for CSG, patrolling GIUK Gap, and any other ASW missions. This is much worse than losing a T23 GP Frigate that had nt even undergone LIFEX (and thus saving some costs by early retirement).

It's already 31 years since Westminster was launched.....
:(

Its going to be a rough few years until the first T26s are in active service. At a time when global tensions are at highest for many decades and still rising.....

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

The only silver lining is that one of the GP T23s could be repurposed to a ASW role and kept on for a bit longer. Wouldn’t be the case with the T31 vs T26.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:16 leaving just 5*T23 ASW to do all the misions such as TAPS, two for CSG, patrolling GIUK Gap, and any other ASW missions.
We already only have five T23 ASW available Westminster has been de-stored ready for refit since October last year and HMS St Albans and HMS Sutherland are in dock still.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Repulse wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:26 The only silver lining is that one of the GP T23s could be repurposed to a ASW role and kept on for a bit longer. Wouldn’t be the case with the T31 vs T26.
I don't believe it is a silver lining making a GP into an ASW isn't just a case of hoisting a tail on board, there would be loads of work required. If you can't afford the work on Westminster how do afford the conversion work?
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

tomuk wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:48
Repulse wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:26 The only silver lining is that one of the GP T23s could be repurposed to a ASW role and kept on for a bit longer. Wouldn’t be the case with the T31 vs T26.
I don't believe it is a silver lining making a GP into an ASW isn't just a case of hoisting a tail on board, there would be loads of work required. If you can't afford the work on Westminster how do afford the conversion work?
Have the GP’s actually kept pace with the refits on the ASWs over the years?

It’s an option but it probably won’t be as cheap and straightforward as many suspect.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:54
tomuk wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:48
Repulse wrote: 30 May 2023, 21:26 The only silver lining is that one of the GP T23s could be repurposed to a ASW role and kept on for a bit longer. Wouldn’t be the case with the T31 vs T26.
I don't believe it is a silver lining making a GP into an ASW isn't just a case of hoisting a tail on board, there would be loads of work required. If you can't afford the work on Westminster how do afford the conversion work?
Have the GP’s actually kept pace with the refits on the ASWs over the years?

It’s an option but it probably won’t be as cheap and straightforward as many suspect.
I don't have any definitive info on how in step GP and ASW upgrades have been over the years but the MOD is not afraid of fleets within fleets. Look at Tornado in the past where upgrades were only made to deployed jets not the wider fleet.

Another thing is the history of the T23 build the integration and development of the CMS was very much delayed and AIUI early ships sailed without a properly functioning CMS. All the GP T23s are early build laid down between 1985 and 1989. The ASW ships are all later builds.

Another thing to watch out for is the build yard as all the remaining GPs are Yarrows whereas the three eldest ASWs are Swan Hunter, Richmond being the last warship built by the yard before it went bust.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

On Westminster issue.

Changing T23GP into T23ASW may cost a lot. Sonar differs. "Tail" related region differs. And, T23GP's are all older than T23ASWs. I do not think changing a T23GP into ASW is easy. Anyway, there are only 3 T23GP left, and their hull status is not well known, either.

By the way, losing Westminster will affect RN NOT from now. As she was planned to go into refit for about 2 years, it is on 2025 RN will face some trouble, because a T23ASW which must have been back to the fleet is non-existing. For any "counter measure", we have 1.5 years left to do.

To say the truth, I believe RN is now (always) facing "lack of crew". T26-hull1 needs her full crew on 2025, as she will be "delivered" to RN on 2026. Even though she will only be accepted into service on 2028, she still needs full crew from late 2025. My question is, when the Westminster is re-activated as planned, are there enough crew?

T31-hull1 will also be needing her full crew by 2025. This is OK, because another T23GP will be disbanded by then. But, T31-hull2 will also come in 2026, followed by hull-3 in 2027. All 5 hulls will be delivered to RN by 2028 (if no delay). This means, all crew of the remaining 3 T23GPs will be needed for the 5 T31s, and none left for T23ASW.

So, anyway, T26-hull1 needs a crew from T23ASW. What was the original plan, from which ship the crew of HMS Glasgow was planned to be taken?

In some worst case scenario, it will be true that "disbanding Westminster now has zero impact on RN frigate force". Not because there is enough hull, but because "anyway there is not enough crew". In this case, not paying for Westminster's refit will just save money and lose nothing, again not because it is OK, just because it is ALREADY in very BAD situation.

Just my thought.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

One in...


One out...

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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I interviewed Thales during Paris Air Show because they were showcasing a RN Peregrine UAS for the first time

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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xav wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:09 I interviewed Thales during Paris Air Show because they were showcasing a RN Peregrine UAS for the first time

Yes please 10 more of these 2 for each of the RB2's

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:15
xav wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:09 I interviewed Thales during Paris Air Show because they were showcasing a RN Peregrine UAS for the first time

Yes please 10 more of these 2 for each of the RB2's
what is current order size?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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new guy wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 17:18
Tempest414 wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:15
xav wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:09 I interviewed Thales during Paris Air Show because they were showcasing a RN Peregrine UAS for the first time

Yes please 10 more of these 2 for each of the RB2's
what is current order size?
I don't know 3 or 4 maybe

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Tempest414 wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 17:22
new guy wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 17:18
Tempest414 wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:15
xav wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 11:09 I interviewed Thales during Paris Air Show because they were showcasing a RN Peregrine UAS for the first time

Yes please 10 more of these 2 for each of the RB2's
what is current order size?
I don't know 3 or 4 maybe
Initial contract was valued at £20m, and this has a unit cost of under 500k. The contract would have probably be mostly more other stuff than the units themselves. I would say around 50-100 are needed.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »



Parliamentary question reveals HMS Iron Duke LIFEX refit cost whopping £100m (subject to final negotiations with Babcock).
HMS Kent LIFEX - £36M.
HMS Richmond LIFEX including PMGU engine upgrade - £56M
No wonder refitting HMS Westminster a problem.


I think Kent and Richmond pays well. If £56M gives 8 years of more life, it equates to £112M for 16 years or £180M for 24 years, equivalent. (I am NOT saying it shall be operated for another 24 years, just "equivalent"). Even if it is 5 more years, it is £112M for 10 years or £180M for 15 years.

How about Iron Duke.
If £100M for 5 years, it is £200M for 10 years, £300M for 15 years, equivalent.
If £100M for 8 years, it is £200M for 16 years, £300M for 24 years, equivalent.

Again, I am NOT saying it shall be operated for another 24 years, just showing "equivalent" cost

As she is GP, Iron Duke's number looks "on the edge" for another 5 years (if it is another 8 years, I think it still is not bad).

Original LIFEX budget for all 13 T23 was expected to be £600M (not including PMGU engine upgrade). I guess it does not include SeaCeptor and Artisan themselves, but include its integration cost (which naturally dominates over the parts price).

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