UK Complex Weapons Thread

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dmereifield
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ncher.html

"CAMM successful qualification trials from 3-cell EXLS launcher"

Interesting, good timing for the T31 proposals?

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Caribbean »

Also mentions qualification for "ExLS Host/MK 41", so presumably Mk41 quad-packing is now a reality.
... and yes, good timing for T31 (almost as if they planned it that way!)
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Aethulwulf
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Aethulwulf »

MBDA is Pitching Sea Ceptor to Finland

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/ ... apons-buy/

Lord Jim
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

Reading the article it reminded me that Italy is buying the CAMM-ER for both its Army and Navy. Could we fit CAMM-ER into our planned Sky Sabre system? What would the increase in the engagement envelope be?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:Also mentions qualification for "ExLS Host/MK 41", so presumably Mk41 quad-packing is now a reality.
Assuming that, it takes us back to putting full-on silos onto warships of 2+ kt? Is Finland planning an artillery duel with TLAMs against a threat out of Kaliningrad against her seaborne trade life line :)

Defencenews: "

Both the lightweight and conventional MK41 launchers are offered to Finland.

The Finnish Navy designers will seek high performance in a corvette which will sail through shallow waters and ice, he said. That calls for avoiding carrying heavy systems onboard, particularly at the bow, he said. MBDA expects that will favor a pick of CAMM, which weighs around 100 kg, about half the weight of ESSM"

Big tubes (silos) would naturally sit on the centre line of such design, and the quadpacking option would cut down on the impact on the length of the vessel - especially as only a helo deck rather than one with a hangar is being planned.
- every little bit helps!
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Aethulwulf »

http://www.janes.com/article/81000/exte ... nce-es18d4

MBDA has brought its EMADS / CAMM-ER air defence system to Eurosatory for the first time...

...Although it shares around 90 per cent systems commonality with the standard 99kg CAMM, the extended-range version looks very different. It has a long-burn rocket motor made by Avio, with a larger diameter (190mm instead of 166mm) and longer rear body.

Narrow strakes are added to give aerodynamic stability and also to stiffen the extended body structure. Despite its extra length, the 160kg CAMM-ER can use the same launcher as the standard missile. Engagement range is more than 40km. CAMM-ER is soft-launched vertically. The missile is ejected from the canister by compressed air, after which the body is turned by small thrusters before the main motor ignites. The standard launcher carries eight canisters, and all eight missiles can be fired in rapid succession against separate targets over a full hemispherical engagement zone.

Both CAMM and CAMM-ER employ an active RF seeker that provides excellent capability against a wide range of aerial targets. Performance against low-heat signature targets such as glide bombs is particularly noteworthy.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

It would be a boost for the Army's Land Ceptor Regiment if we adopted the ER version as well, especially if the same launcher can be used. It would almost double the area a single battery can influence and give us a true mid range capability. It would also make up somewhat for the limited numbers or units we are currently buying.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: It would almost double the area a single battery can influence and give us a true mid range capability. It would also make up somewhat for the limited numbers or units we are currently buying.
At sea, the billiard table rules apply; on land it works quite differently, i.e. you need the extra layers
... which we actually do have; other than the last half mile gun defences
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

Which layers exist in the UK's GBAD network besides Land Ceptor and Starstreak? We definitely have nothing in the Patriot category. I worry that for too long we have operated under the principal that we will have the skies to ourselves, but what if we don't? Even the mighty US Army is scrambling to reintroduce an integrated GBAD system, and they have the most effect Air Force on the planet. I know the ER version of Land Ceptor isn't in the same league as the Patriot PAC3, but it would be a far cheaper and simpler enhancement to a system we are already working on bringing in to service.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: UK's GBAD network besides Land Ceptor and Starstreak? We definitely have nothing in the Patriot category.
Correct. We only have tactical solutions, of less than a brigade's sphere of influence.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

Funnily enough, SHORAD is actually the area that most seem to be scrambling to control, given the rise of UAV spotting. The US very heavily neglected SHORAD, and are currently running competitions to get an interim system in place of a long term one.

They mostly are focusing on short range missiles, but there are SPAA elements in there too, since missiles vs drones is a heavy cost effectiveness loss.

British forces aren't too badly placed for this sort of thing as is, what with Starstreak and Stormer in wide use, and CAMM being notably more mobile and cheaper than a Patriot, however the sudden broach on SPAA from several major nations is an interesting indicator. Russia recently demonstrated a new one too.

Perhaps a simple solution would be to use BAEs connections in Sweden to acquire the CV90 PS-95 radar from the Luftvärnskanonvagn 9040. ie - A radar that lets the Bofors fire as an AA vehicle. Attach that to an Ajax or Warrior with CT40, and there you go.

All things considered though, UK isn't too bad in the SHORAD department.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

Would be a good idea, especially if the CTA was fully kited out and able to fire fully programable ammo.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Lord Jim wrote:Would be a good idea, especially if the CTA was fully kited out and able to fire fully programable ammo.
There is already a dedicated aerial defence round within CTA's portfolio IIRC. Moreover, Thales demonstrated a CTA 40mm based SPAA system at one of the Eurosatory events not long ago - it was called RapidFIRE (it can be combined with Starstreak for additional punch): https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... /rapidfire

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

Right al we need to do now is by around 30 to 40 of these and then form three Air Defence Regiments with each operating batteries of Land Ceptor, Starstreak and SPAA, able to provide a layered air defence net over an Army Brigade. I prefer this to three regiments each equipped with one type as having a permeants networks grid could possibly work better. Mind you base then all at the same camo so we only need one set of support infrastructure.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Aethulwulf »

The US has cleared Spain to buy five Aegis weapon systems, I guess for the new F110 frigates.

It is interesting to note that although the request includes SM-2 missiles, there is no mention of Sea Sparrow or ESSM. Is this a strong indication that these new frigates will be equipped with CAMM (or CAMM ER)? Would mean that CAMM will be integrated with Aegis...

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... s-systems/

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

Aethulwulf wrote:The US has cleared Spain to buy five Aegis weapon systems, I guess for the new F110 frigates.

It is interesting to note that although the request includes SM-2 missiles, there is no mention of Sea Sparrow or ESSM. Is this a strong indication that these new frigates will be equipped with CAMM (or CAMM ER)? Would mean that CAMM will be integrated with Aegis...

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... s-systems/
Pretty certain its just due to Spain having a large inventory of ESSM already.


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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

Ignoring the presenter for now, watching this there is an interesting article covering SPEAR and the F-35.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

https://www.janes.com/article/87978/mbd ... r-variants

MBDA in the UK has disclosed details on the development of two prospective air-launched missile variants evolved from its baseline SPEAR stand-off, air-to-surface developmental weapon system: SPEAR-EW (electronic warfare) and SPEAR-Glide
Non subscriber version doesn't detail the variants bar the names, but it sounds a lot like just a Glidebomb similar to SDB to be cheap (an excellent idea), and possibly a more SEAD focused variant of Spear.

The commonality savings from this would be enormous, and the reduction in cost from the glidebomb too.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by andrew98 »

How about Meteor converted to a new ALARM missile?

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

andrew98 wrote:How about Meteor converted to a new ALARM missile?
Its small warhead might still come in handy (with the range, and the speed to get to the target) in the kind of scenario that the Swedish Defence Research Agengy (FOI) has outlined:
"According to a report, the missile with a purported 248-miles range, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. In its current configuration, the S-400 system should mainly be considered a threat to large high-value aircraft such as AWACS or transport aircraft at medium to high altitudes, out to a range of 125-155 mile. In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be an as little 12-20 miles.

Moreover, despite its sophistication, an S-400 battery is dependent on a single engagement radar and has a limited number of firing platforms. It is thus vulnerable both to munitions targeting its engagement radar and to saturation attacks. If and when the 40N6 missile goes online, its 248-miles technical range cannot be effectively exploited against targets below approximately 3000 meters unless target data can be provided and updated during the missile’s flight by airborne or forward-deployed radars."
- the last sentence ignores the fact that Russian AF has a good number of AWACS-like assets
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Timmymagic »

andrew98 wrote:How about Meteor converted to a new ALARM missile?
MBDA did mock up a green painted, ground launched Meteor recently (see bottom left picture) under the land indirect fire requirement....presumably for time sensitive targets...but it's not going to be much faster than a GMLRS and doesn't appear in the image as having a Brimstone style seeker or E/O head which would reduce its utility and viability. Why spend £1,000,000+ on a missile that hits a fixed GPS co-ordinate with a small warhead when GMLRS or the forthcoming LRPF do it so much better and cheaper? Instead it might be they were looking at it as an ground launched ARM or potential SAM...which would be brilliant for the UK. A rocket boosted Meteor that could integrate with Land Ceptor would be a massive capability increase, combined with CAMM-ER it would give the UK a very capable SAM system for little cost, presumably it would be a massive upgrade for RN vessels as well. It wouldn't cover intercepting ballistic missiles though as the ramjet won't function as well over really high altitudes (+120,000 ft) due to the thinness of the air.

Realistically the CAMM with Brimstone seeker and SPEAR make more sense as a SEAD/DEAD weapon, but ALARM's loitering capability gave it an edge all of its own. SPEAR could certainly have the range and loitering capability of ALARM (although it will, in its current form only be able to loiter for max 10 minutes at 70km range) but without the high speed.



The CAMM variants with DMB seeker and E/O heads are the really, really interesting items though....huge potential for them.

1) - Spike NLOS/Exactor replacement - Precision strike out to 50km, with a comparatively small collateral warhead. Probably cheaper, faster, bigger warhead than SPIKE NLOS/Exactor. UK built. No political issues around use/deployment. Could be added as the image suggests as a module on Boxer. The offensive capability of Strike Brigades enhanced enormously very easily. Replaces the poor trailer mounted version (that by all accounts isn't successful or suitable for peer-to-peer war).
2) - Anti-Armour Overwatch - A super Swingfire replacement. No MBT on earth could defend against a Mach 3-4 missile coming in near vertically, it wouldn't even need a warhead, KE alone would tear through a tanks top armour. A modern diving LOSAT. The speed of response would mean it could operate at much further range than Swingfire could and cover multiple units. Probably easiest to leave on Boxer and MAN chassis than add on to Ajax. The ability to ripple fire a number into a grid square a la Brimstone, to deal with an enemy armoured advance, would be a gamechanger, it would also take some pressure off the AH-64 fleet.
3) - F-35 Outer Pylon compatible - Brimstone 2/3 will never be integrated, but Asraam has (and Asraam CSP will). The combination of the Asraam form factor and Brimstone seeker (as used on Spear which will be integrated) would allow a very straightforward integration to F-35. Very easily you give F-35B a cheaper, faster Spear capability but in 2 forms - Dual Mode and E/O. The Dual Mode would be very useful as a SEAD/DEAD weapon for pop up targets. The E/O capability is a new one to the F-35.
4) - Compatibility with Land Ceptor launchers.
5) - Compatibility with Sea Ceptor launchers - A big advantage. Any RN vessel (including T31, and you would hope QE eventually) would have the capability of carrying an easy to integrate missile that can deal with Fast Attack Craft in any weather conditions or provide precision strike out to 60km. This would be a whole lot easier than integration of the Spear missile which would require a new booster and tip over mechanism. It would also be easier to integrate and mount than the rail mounted Brimstone that MBDA trialed, soft vertical launch means any direction can be targeted with no loss in range and also removes the issue of environmental containment and efflux that the rail launched Brimstone would have had at sea.
6) - Export sales - New Zealand, Italy, Brazil and Chile. Plus India, Saudi Arabia and Australia are Asraam users. As a solution to anti-air, anti-missile, precision strike, anti-FAC it's pretty much unique, and a pretty compelling set of capabilities for any potential new users. One small VLS suddenly does a lot of roles. If you could get a rocket boosted Spear in there as well it could be the ideal VL system for Corvettes and Frigates, essentially a mini Mk.41 only without the ASW rockets available.
7) - Typhoon compatible - Another string to its bow. Not sure if the air to ground aspect could be easily ported to Tranche 1's though, be interesting if it could be.
8) - Falklands - There's no real credible threat there. But sending a few down south to be launched from the Land Ceptor battery would be a useful capability for the defence forces to have.
9) - UK Land Forces get a small anti-ship missile by default.
10) - UK Industry benefits - No ITAR issues.
11) - With the offboard targeting method used there is no reason why a Boxer equipped with the launcher could not also launch Land Ceptor SAM's as well as the ground attack CAMM derivatives. Strike Brigades get more SAM's, and with an armoured platform they could be brought closer to the front (the rack would probably need to rotate to the vertical though to get maximum benefit though).

This is exactly what the Complex Weapons Team initiative was about. Developing capabilities that could be ported between different systems, maximising development and sustainment funds whilst delivering greater capability.

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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

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More exciting stuff.

An EW variant of Spear, build to work as part of a missile 'wolf-pack' to confuse and overwhelm the enemy.

This sound like real positive development, with great potential for SEAD, or Anti-shipping, all wrapped up inside a LO aircraft.
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Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Lord Jim »

According to Jane's the Anglo/French next generation AShM/Cruise Missile (FCASW) has met a bit of an impasse as the requirements of both nations seem to be diverging and until this can be resolved the next phase is on pause.

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