UK Defence Forum

no, the earlier post, spesifically;

Timmymagic wrote:but I would have expected a degree of testing prior to it being selected for service.

No I'm not suggesting that.

The Army, Navy, RNZN, Brazil and Chile have all selected it and I'm sure have done their due diligence. I'm just surprised there has been so little released about it. News updates, marketing materials etc. are all a little thin on the ground. Usually a new weapon systems, particularly one with as many applications, and clear potential for sales, as CAMM there would be a whole plethora of videos of successful tests etc out there. And to my knowledge there have been no test firings in a maritime environment.

Not sure what a Wiesel carrying Stinger has to do with things (ArmChairCivvy). I'm guessing you meant the version with LFK NG. But thats a very different beast from CAMM as it's a small ground launched IR homer. The German equivalent of CAMM would be the IRIS-T-SL which they're developing as part of MEADS.

since the canadians have experience fitting it I wonder could they go for CAMM?

marktigger wrote:since the canadians have experience fitting it I wonder could they go for CAMM?

Who knows with Canadian defence procurement....probably be CAMM's successor at the glacial rate of their procurement.

I had completely missed that it appears the Brazilian Marines could be operating CAMM(L) in the future from an Astros platform. Not sure how nailed on that is. I wonder if they were the other sale opportunity that was mentioned previously. There was a fair bit of speculation about it being Thailand, Malaysia or one of the Gulf States. Hopefully the Italians will get on board at some point, particularly with CAMM-ER. Wikipedia has the range listed for that as 45km+. given that in the same article Janes reported that CAMM had a capability out to 60km you have to wonder if CAMM-ER could be touching 90km+. Which is very interesting to say the least.

Timmymagic wrote:And to my knowledge there have been no test firings in a maritime environment

I don't think there has been, HMS Westminster only went to sea a month ago, with plenty to prove after a long refit. All seems a bit soon to me.

I wonder how CAMM (L) & (M) will stack up against AMRAAM land

AMRAAM from land is apparently supposed to be around 20km range.

Depends on the AMRAAM version though, I suppose.

RetroSicotte wrote:AMRAAM from land is apparently supposed to be around 20km range.

Double that for ER (which NASAMS2 can use... should really be termed "3" as there was also a version utilising the radar from Hawk batteries (anyone remember Hawk...)

UK to replenish Hellfire stock

The UK is to replenish its stock of Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles at a cost of USD150 million.

According to the US Defense Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA), which announced the State Department approval for the sale on 16 March, the UK has requested 1,000 AGM-114R1/R2 Hellfire II semi-active laser (SAL) missiles with logistics support services and other related programme support.

Read More: http://www.janes.com/article/68809/uk-t ... fire-stock

I thought we operated from US stocks?

shark bait wrote:I thought we operated from US stocks?

I guess we'll have to top them up occasionally. 1000 missiles though....doesn't look like the Reapers are going to be letting up any time soon. How many of these will be ported over to Protector.

Timmymagic wrote:1000 missiles though....doesn't look like the Reapers are going to be letting up any time soon. How many of these will be ported over to Protector.

Or no Brimstones on the new(er) Apaches?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Or no Brimstones on the new(er) Apaches?

Cost may be a factor. But you have to wonder when all of the AGM-114L Hellfires in stock for Longbow will need re-lifing. We can't have used many/any to date, apart from a small number for training. As these being purchased are the R variant it makes a degree of sense to replenish stocks but also have a weapon for Apache, Reaper and Protector from the get go. | do wonder how many are going to backfill US stocks of their P variant, how many are scheduled for use in the ME and how many are for the stockpile.

Timmymagic wrote:backfill US stocks of their P variant, how many are scheduled for use in the ME

Weapons fired/ dropped count over the last year has been quite high... easier to find them when they are holding ground.

UK and France strengthen defence cooperation with new weapon system agreement

Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin and her French counterpart Laurent Collet-Billon today sign an agreement to explore future missile technologies with MBDA

Signed during a visit by M. Collet-Billon to the Ministry of Defence, the agreement begins a three year concept phase to develop future long range weapons for the British and French Navies and Air Forces. Each country will contribute €50 million to this phase.

The Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon programme will look at options to replace and improve existing Naval and Air Force weapons systems in the next decade. Lasting up to three years, this will help to define the missile designs and reduce risks to inform decisions about the next stage of the programme.

[...]

Délégué Général pour l’Armement Laurent Collet-Billon said:
We are launching today a major new phase in our bilateral cooperation, by planning together a generation of missiles, successor to the Harpoon, SCALP and Storm Shadow. The FC/ASW (future cruise/anti-ship weapon) programme’s aim is to have by around 2030 a new generation of missiles.

Read More: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... -agreement

The Armchair Soldier wrote:UK and France strengthen defence cooperation with new weapon system agreement

Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin and her French counterpart Laurent Collet-Billon today sign an agreement to explore future missile technologies with MBDA

Signed during a visit by M. Collet-Billon to the Ministry of Defence, the agreement begins a three year concept phase to develop future long range weapons for the British and French Navies and Air Forces. Each country will contribute €50 million to this phase.

The Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon programme will look at options to replace and improve existing Naval and Air Force weapons systems in the next decade. Lasting up to three years, this will help to define the missile designs and reduce risks to inform decisions about the next stage of the programme.

[...]

Délégué Général pour l’Armement Laurent Collet-Billon said:
We are launching today a major new phase in our bilateral cooperation, by planning together a generation of missiles, successor to the Harpoon, SCALP and Storm Shadow. The FC/ASW (future cruise/anti-ship weapon) programme’s aim is to have by around 2030 a new generation of missiles.

Read More: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... -agreement

Ok but what about an announcement for what we are going to use between 2018-2030ish

Good news, but didn't this already happen? is this the trick of re-announcing shit again?

Royal Navy Lynx Mk8 tests Sea Venom/ANL missile

A Royal Navy Lynx Mk 8 helicopter recently performed air carriage and jettison trials of the MBDA-made Sea Venom/ANL anti-ship missile.

According to the missile manufacturer, the trials proved that the missile can be integrated onto the Lynx and Super Lynx helicopters.

Read More: http://navaltoday.com/2017/04/10/royal- ... l-missile/

A nice way to go into retirement "The trials were undertaken in March at the Larkhill Range at Boscombe Down, and saw a Royal Navy Lynx Mk8 successfully conduct a series of air carriage trials prior to jettisoning two Sea Venom missiles fitted with telemetry kits." - with a bang (two!).

For land-attack capability there are similarities in the kind of seeker head that the missile will come with to the one on JSM
- Oz just co-funded adding a third component that can discriminate targets according to their electronic signature

ArmChairCivvy wrote:A nice way to go into retirement "The trials were undertaken in March at the Larkhill Range at Boscombe Down, and saw a Royal Navy Lynx Mk8 successfully conduct a series of air carriage trials prior to jettisoning two Sea Venom missiles fitted with telemetry kits." - with a bang (two!).

For land-attack capability there are similarities in the kind of seeker head that the missile will come with to the one on JSM
- Oz just co-funded adding a third component that can discriminate targets according to their electronic signature

That's the bit that's confused me about Sea Venoms seeker head. The literature is very careful to use the words 'Coastal' rather than 'land attack' which is the current go to description. It's all a bit odd, especially given MBDA's expertise with seekers. Does it need contrast with water? Or is there a definition that says 10 miles in from the shore is 'coastal'. Genuinely interested as it seems the Sea Venom could be a useful capability against AShM batteries. It's a different beast to Spike NLOS and South Korea has a different target set in mind requiring extreme precision but is that the reason why they went for it?

Why the hell was it set for mk. 8 and not wildcat?

The trials with the Lynx Mk8 and Sea Venom missiles was conducted to make it easier for MBDA to sell the Sea Venom to current operators of the Lynx. Although the RN has replaced all its Lynx with Wildcats, many other countries still operate Lynx and will continue to operate them for another 10 to 15 years. Equipping them all with Sea Venom would make MBDA very happy.

Trials with Sea Venom and Wildcat are also ongoing.

UK announces a $52 mn investment for MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missile

The UK Secretary of State for Defence, Sir Michael Fallon, has today, April 21, announced three new missile contracts worth a combined USD690 million for state-of-the-art Meteor air-to-air missile, Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) and Sea Viper missile systems at MBDA Stevenage.

[...]

As part of a USD52 million contract, the Meteor air-to-air missiles will arm the UK’s F-35B Lightning II squadrons. It will provide the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy with a world beating missile that can engage with targets moving at huge speed and at a very long range. The weapon will enter service on Typhoon with the RAF in 2018 and the F-35B from 2024, and will be used on a range of missions including protecting the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers.

Read More: http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... ssile.html

Timmymagic wrote: Or is there a definition that says 10 miles in from the shore is 'coastal'. Genuinely interested as it seems the Sea Venom could be a useful capability against AShM batteries. It's a different beast to Spike NLOS and South Korea has a different target set in mind requiring extreme precision but is that the reason why they went for it?

As for coastal, "littoral" is such a rare/ difficult word that customers in export markets would have to consult their dictionary (this is basically the same comment as A-wulf's below).

If "they" refers to ROK, and their Marines more specifically, who
A: operate the Wildcats, and
B: are tasked with defending the islands close to the neighbour to the North
NLOS was chosen because of its pinpoint accuracy with an imaging "intelligent" seeker, basically a mini-Tomahawk that can hit a bunker through a 1 mtr opening. Namely, they lost an artillery duel when old-fashioned rockets (area weapons) targeted an island, where the counter-battery was supposed to be a half dozen of K9s. The mobility and dispersal of K9s did not work against the saturation fire and their accuracy with the response was not effective either as the rocket launchers had been placed in preprepared, hardened "shelters" - can't really call it a bunker as the rocket salvo needs quite a large opening in one direction.
- that's the defencive, and the past
- the future could well be with the Dokdos that so far have been operating non-marinised helicopters. They are essentially coastal attack vessels and adding Wildcats with NLOS will turn them into "monitors" with very effective shore bombardment capability in the connection of an opposed landing

The Armchair Soldier wrote: a world beating missile that can engage with targets moving at huge speed and at a very long range. The weapon will enter service on Typhoon with the RAF in 2018 and the F-35B from 2024

In reverse order, for the bolded:
- until 2024 the minuscule JSF force (in the UK context) will be nothing more than first-strike stealth bombers, with a limited self-defence capability
- China is making such progress with ramjets that I would not be surprised if the US suddenly scrambles to buy the Meteor, after all