UK Defence Forum

Posted: **28 Nov 2016, 23:05**

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I would think that Spike ER and Hellfire are about on par as for "explosive scale"... both have been adopted for anti-ship use (but now we are talking about use against vessels coming close to shore; even a full-fat frigate would be stupid to do that, giving away some of its sphere of self protection).

Resurrecting this, but the Spike-NLOS (Exactor 2) that the UK bought (after the supply of Tamuz was used up) did have a blast fragmentation warhead rather than HEAT. Not sure if we bought HEAT and Blast/Frag. It would be interesting to know as we all tend to assume Exactor could be used in an anti-armour role in the future. If we only have blast/frag versions in stock it might not be that much use (if IIRC the Tamuz that we bought were hard to control due to their higher speed and control surfaces and were at the end of their shelf life). It would be interesting to note what type of warhead the South Koreans have gone for in their version as there is quite a range of targets that they could be called to prosecute.
Also it might be my memory, but isn't the Sea Skua warhead angled downwards? I wonder if Sea Venom uses the same trick?

Posted: **02 Dec 2016, 11:32**

jimthelad wrote:Could we put the OSD back 2-3 years and then dovetail a LRASM order due to the commonality of the launcher footprint, consoles, and wiring?

Could do, but that doesn't really solve the issue of Harpoon being too dumb to be usable within tight rules of engagement.

Also what commonality? LRASM doesn't even have a deck launched option at the moment, although it is on the cards.

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 08:33**

France UK to Launch Concept Phase & Feasibility Studies for Future Anti-Ship Missile in March 2017

MBDA will start working on its next gen anti-ship missile, currently known as the Future Cruise and Anti-Ship Weapon (FCASW) / in French: Future Missile Anti-Navire Future Missile de Croisiere (FMAN/FMC), in March 2017. The announcement was made December 16th in a joint statement by UK's Minister for Defence Procurement Harriett Baldwin and Laurent Collet-Billon, the head of France's defence procurement agency (DGA).

Délégué Général pour l’Armement, Laurent Collet-Billon said:
"I sincerely thank the French and British teams for the huge amount of work that has led to this achievement. Several major milestones within our equipment cooperation await us in 2017 and we will work just as hard to pass them. I am specifically thinking about the FC/ASW programme conception phase contract award in March 2017 and the launch of the FCAS programme demonstration phase at the end of the year."

The UK and France intend to jointly develop several new missiles, one of them being the FCASW. FCASW should eventually replace both anti-ship missiles used by the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale (Harpoon and Exocet respectively) as well as air-launched cruise missiles used by both countries (the Storm Shadow / Scalp). In service date is expected to be around 2030.

Contacted by Navy Recognition, an MBDA source said the studies would likely take place at MBDA France in Le Plessis-Robinson as well as at MBDA UK in Stevenage.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -2017.html

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 10:58**

Timmymagic wrote:
Resurrecting this, but the Spike-NLOS (Exactor 2) that the UK bought (after the supply of Tamuz was used up) did have a blast fragmentation warhead rather than HEAT. Not sure if we bought HEAT and Blast/Frag. It would be interesting to know as we all tend to assume Exactor could be used in an anti-armour role in the future. If we only have blast/frag versions in stock it might not be that much use (if IIRC the Tamuz that we bought were hard to control due to their higher speed and control surfaces and were at the end of their shelf life). It would be interesting to note what type of warhead the South Koreans have gone for in their version as there is quite a range of targets that they could be called to prosecute.
Also it might be my memory, but isn't the Sea Skua warhead angled downwards? I wonder if Sea Venom uses the same trick?

yes Blast fragmentation has limited uses soft protected equipment maybe.

Was Swingfire retired without replacement and could Spike-NLOS step into that role with new missiles?

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 11:47**

xav wrote: as well as air-launched cruise missiles used by both countries (the Storm Shadow / Scalp). In service date is expected to be around 2030.

On the part of SS, will the above make it Spear4 or 5?
- I hope they drop this stupidity with numbers as soon as each capability gets selected, and give them real names (oer even take the original, which, for some reason, at least the army seems to be shy of)

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 18:10**

Spear capability 3 is now has the original name of "MBDA’S SPEAR"

Good news to hear FCASW is progressing. Does this mean Storm Shadows upgrades are not happening?

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 19:15**

Uk defence journal has this about Harpoon replacement and future anti ship missile looks like we will have a long gap until it goes into production.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/plans-d ... e-forward/

Posted: **19 Dec 2016, 23:08**

FCASW is a decade beyond Harpoon OSD, hopefully there will be an interim solution, there's still time to acquire one.

NSM is a ready made interim solution.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 00:11**

Much as I think NSM is one of the best options available to NATO for its versatility of platforms (There's even a submarine version in development, would be great for Astute!) at this point the only viable option I can think of is Harpoon BLock 2 ER (or whatever the name for it now is). It can go right onto the ships without inevitable years of integration research, with the 2 short years the Navy has left until retirement of ASMs it might be the only option.

But that then leaves Type 26 with a big problem too for the 6-8 years it'll have until 2030. TACTOMs, perhaps? It's not a "designed as", but it can do the job.

Of course we all know the reality. 2018 to 2030 will have no anti-ship capability on any ship, and they'll just keep trumping up the FCASW as "us investing in our forces" the whole time.

Who's waiting for the news that P-8 won't have any ASM either, because the only "political" move they need to use it to counter is Russian subs alone? I am very very willing to believe this is what will happen.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 00:42**

RetroSicotte wrote:Of course we all know the reality. 2018 to 2030 will have no anti-ship capability on any ship, and they'll just keep trumping up the FCASW as "us investing in our forces" the whole time.

In my mind the only possible solution is JSM/NSM, from canisters, that presents a modern capability, including land attack and even then it involves the stocks being switched from canister launched to air launched in the early mid 2020's for the F-35 and P-8. Just after the Norwegians ad Australians have paid for all the integration (we will pylon launch though). Actually, even given the rubbish position that we find ourselves in that makes sense. Therefore it will never happen.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 07:33**

Timmymagic wrote: presents a modern capability, including land attack and even then it involves the stocks being switched from canister launched to air launched in the early mid 2020's for the F-35 and P-8.

A good plan as you cant hold infinite stocks of everything.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 12:01**

Stocks cannot be switched NSM & JSM are different, but similar missiles.

different shape
different comms hardware
Different software
JSM has thermal management so it can sit inside a hot bay

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 17:37**

Question will the Americans allow an Anglo-French missile to be integrated onto the F35/P8 or indeed any non american weapons/support system? the Trump whitehouse will be about American Jobs for American workers!

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 18:06**

They are already allowing UK (ASRAAM and Paveway IV) and Norwegian (JSM) weapons to be integrated with F35.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 20:02**

marktigger wrote:Question will the Americans allow an Anglo-French missile to be integrated onto the F35/P8 or indeed any non american weapons/support system? the Trump whitehouse will be about American Jobs for American workers!

Paveway IV, Spear 3, ASRAAM, Meteor all for the UK on F-35B. In addition you've got JSM, SOM and doubtless a load of Israeli weapons to come. Storm Shadow and Brimstone were on the cards as well at one point. So no problem there. I suspect the same with the P-8, there's no way the UK and Norway would sign up unless the potential existed for integration of their own weapons. Again NSM/JSM for the Norgies (and if we had any sense the UK) and hopefully Stingray for the UK (although it would need a guided wing kit to be effective). The odds on Stingray being integrated eventually have risen with the Norwegians on board as they are one of the other operators and are very big fans of it.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 20:26**

With regards to the P8 there are currently no plans to integrate UK weapons of any description. That doesn't mean it wont happen in the future.

Posted: **20 Dec 2016, 23:06**

and we aren't at the stage of UK weapons integration yet with F35 so making the assumption it will happen could be interesting.

Posted: **21 Dec 2016, 00:25**

Yes we are...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-421685/

http://www.janes.com/article/66001/uk-s ... ay-iv-drop

Posted: **22 Dec 2016, 18:46**

what is the reliability of current complex weapons.....I remember going to firing camps and seeing as many as 1 round in 3 fail for a variety of reasons. I am aware at firing camps the missiles used were right at the end of their shelf life (bit like current harpoon and seawolf). Most of the missiles on those camps were repackaged and the full standard packs were marked for units that had been on op granby or Armilla patrol. Some of the FSP's and field handling containers had traces of sand in them.

Posted: **22 Dec 2016, 19:01**

I doubt anyone knows regards reliability, though if you were going to reduce it to pure Pk value then 'not very high'.

Rand appeared to assume 2100 ground launched Amraams + 975 Patriots in order to inflict 200 aircraft shot down in one of their recent studies for instance.

At a Bloodhound base towards the end of their long life one of the technicians told me that maybe a third would make it into the air, though what happened after that was anyone's guess should the Russians attack. Or none of them on a Sunday, cos everyone would have buggered off home.

Posted: **22 Dec 2016, 19:08**

Spinflight wrote:Rand appeared to assume 2100 ground launched Amraams

Heh-heh, the White House airdefences going into overdrive? Or who is launching them. on a serial fire setting...

Posted: **04 Mar 2017, 19:30**

Given that a T23 has had it's Sea Ceptor installation and is out on trials now does anyone else find it unusual that so little has been seen or heard of CAMM testing? I know we've seen soft launches from ground mounted canisters and the following rocket burns but...it's been very quiet on the testing front.

I get that by re-using the Asraam and other components the missile itself is fairly low risk but I would have expected a degree of testing prior to it being selected for service. We are after all risking an awful lot on its performance, in the past (admittedly bigger technical leap forwards were being made) there would have been a number of years of tests. PAAM's got the entire Longbow barge for testing. I know CAMM isn't a whole system but surely some need to be done. Because if it doesn't work T23, T26 and T31 are basically screwed as are the Army, Is confidence that high and if so what is that based on (apart from the de-risking.

Posted: **04 Mar 2017, 19:56**

Timmymagic wrote: PAAM's got the entire Longbow barge for testing

Errr, quite a different step in technology; have a little faith
http://armyrecognition.com/images/stori ... nt_001.jpg

Why (?) would it not work ?

Posted: **04 Mar 2017, 20:59**

Are you suggesting the thing hasnt been tested prior to integration? The system has definately been proven prior to selection.

Posted: **04 Mar 2017, 21:21**

dont know if the last one was directed at me (my posting), but the discussion has taken (?) a bizarre turn

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