Wave Class Tanker (RFA)

[Tempest414]

No one has said anything about them getting rid of there fleets yes the UK would give engineering support and Command in the early days however there could and should be a proper training and command program that could and would lead to better trained people across there own navies

No objection. For me, what you are proposing is a lease program with initial training support.

NO I AM NOT PUTTING FORWARD A F'IN lease program I am putting forward a coop training and manning program to every different things

[donald_of_tokyo]

No one has said anything about them getting rid of there fleets yes the UK would give engineering support and Command in the early days however there could and should be a proper training and command program that could and would lead to better trained people across there own navies

No objection. For me, what you are proposing is a lease program with initial training support.

NO I AM NOT PUTTING FORWARD A F'IN lease program I am putting forward a coop training and manning program to every different things

Sorry it is very difficult for me to understand your proposal. I am SURE we cannot "lend" a man power from other navies. Never.

So, the only way to make use of Waves are to lease them. Hardware can be leased, man power cannot.

How on earth can you image a ship, which is commanded by German commander, with 90% of the crew being non-German, 30% of RN sailors, 30% of French sailors and 30% of Italian sailors? At least, the commanding officer will come from either UK, French, or Italian navy, not from German.

[RichardIC]

Should sell them and get extra Tide on order.

Should crew them and use them.

Crew them with?

As I have said before we need to look outside the box maybe we ask the Baltic states to find 320 staff between them the Wave's could then be manned on a 1.5 scale and become NATO Tankers operating from the High North to the East coast of Africa in support of Nato operations

Thinking outside the box is one thing, but this is just weird.

Why would the Baltic states want to do this? How do you know they have 320 "staff" with nothing better to do? What do the Baltic states gain from swanning around off the east coast of Africa? Why would they pay the running costs of two 30,000 tonne tankers?

They're not in reserve in any meaningful sense because we don't have the people to reactivate them. If we can't use we should sell.

[Tempest414]

Should sell them and get extra Tide on order.

Should crew them and use them.

Crew them with?

As I have said before we need to look outside the box maybe we ask the Baltic states to find 320 staff between them the Wave's could then be manned on a 1.5 scale and become NATO Tankers operating from the High North to the East coast of Africa in support of Nato operations

Thinking outside the box is one thing, but this is just weird.

Why would the Baltic states want to do this? How do you know they have 320 "staff" with nothing better to do? What do the Baltic states gain from swanning around off the east coast of Africa? Why would they pay the running costs of two 30,000 tonne tankers?

They're not in reserve in any meaningful sense because we don't have the people to reactivate them. If we can't use we should sell.

Well as we are not selling them so there is clearly a plan for them then

[dmereifield]

Should sell them and get extra Tide on order.

Should crew them and use them.

Crew them with?

As I have said before we need to look outside the box maybe we ask the Baltic states to find 320 staff between them the Wave's could then be manned on a 1.5 scale and become NATO Tankers operating from the High North to the East coast of Africa in support of Nato operations

Thinking outside the box is one thing, but this is just weird.

Why would the Baltic states want to do this? How do you know they have 320 "staff" with nothing better to do? What do the Baltic states gain from swanning around off the east coast of Africa? Why would they pay the running costs of two 30,000 tonne tankers?

They're not in reserve in any meaningful sense because we don't have the people to reactivate them. If we can't use we should sell.

Aren't they in reserve in the sense that if one of the Tides had a mechanical issue, and we desperately needed a 4th tanker, a Wave could be crewed by the Tide crew (with time to work up the ship etc)

[wargame_insomniac]

Assuming that the 4*Tides and future 3*FSS ae required to support the two carriers and LRG(N) then I am in favour of (evntually) having a couple of ships like the current Waves or the afore mentioned BMT Aegir logistic support vessels, or even the previous initial version of BMT Ellida multi-role logistics ship.They would each benefit the RN fleet's logistics chain overseas with combination of liquid and solid stores replenishment.

Norways's HNoMS Maud (183m * 26m and 27,000t), was derived from BMT Aegir design but kept more logistics based and able to carry both liquid and solid stores. Whilst the RFA's 4*Tides (201m * 28.6m and 39,000t), were also based on BMT Aegir design but optimsed for fuel RAS.

If resources allowed, it would be exteremely useful to have one such vessel EoS based in Oman to support LRG(S) in Indiam Ocean, and ideally a second WoS based in Gibralter and able to cover the Med, South Atlantics and Caribbean as required. The problem is both the Budgets to build and maintain them, not to mention the crew required to man them.

If the RN / RFA crews could be "finessed" in such a way to man one or both Waves then it would be proof in practice as to whether or not such ships were required. If you can't make it work in pratice with existing ships, then there is little point in ordring new ships.

I say "finesse" as this requires some crew juggling as discussed previously in amphib thread - credit to @Poiuytrewq who first suggested scrapping the ageing crew-intensive Albion & Bulwark, moving the RN crew to the 3 remainig Bays, and moving the current RFA crew of the 3 Bays in the short term to Fort Victoria and one or both Waves (and in long term to 3*FSS).

Might also need some RFA crew if purchased any sister ships for MROSS (Proteus) and the MCM UAS mothership (Stirling Castle).

Obviously if using one or both Waves away from Hom Waters proved useful and successful, then that would strgthen the case for in long term replacing thm, ideally with BMT Aegir derivative so that all of the RFA supply ships would share some common components and systems, thus helping in long term maintenance and even in crew training.

But if we can't crew the Waves, either by above crew swapping suggestion or any future increase in RFA Manpower (no doubt requiring increased budget to allow better RFA crew recruitment and retention), then we are better off selling them for the best price possible and reinvesting their sales proceeds back into RN / RFA budget.

[Poiuytrewq]

Assuming that the 4*Tides and future 3*FSS ae required to support the two carriers and LRG(N) then I am in favour of (evntually) having a couple of ships like the current Waves or the afore mentioned BMT Aegir logistic support vessels, or even the previous initial version of BMT Ellida multi-role logistics ship.They would each benefit the RN fleet's logistics chain overseas with combination of liquid and solid stores replenishment.

IMO the point you are making here is much more crucial than many believe.

RN has options that will eventually lead to decisions which will have consequences and result in inevitable trade offs.

• If RN decide upon a 1x CVF plus (2nd CVF acting as) 1x LHA strategy then both will only be available less than 40% of the time.

• If RN decide upon 1x high readiness CVF then one will be available almost 70% of the time.

• If RN decide that 1x LHA should be procured as part of the Amphib program then:
  - 1x LHA will always be available
  - 1x CVF and 1x LHA will be available 70% of the time.

This is very important, perhaps essential.

Where does this leave the FSS and Tides?

• If RN goes for a single high readiness CVF, 1x FSS and 1x Tide should always be available with ample capacity to assist a single ARG/LRG.

• If RN goes for the 1x CVF plus 1x LHA setup then there is no assured spare capacity for an independent ARG/LRG.

• If RN goes for the permanently available LHA plus 70% availability of a CVF then 3x FSS and 4x Tides is insufficient to support the CVF/LHA. The ARG/LRG would have no reliable support.

It is clear that RN has a hard choice to make. Either accept carrier based F35 capability will only be available ~70% of the time or build one or more F35 LHA/LHD.

If the 3rd flattop is built then any reliable liquid/solid replenishment capability for an independent ARG/LRG disappears.

If that happens the Waves or their replacements become crucial and the MRSS program is void.

Based on the strategy that RN is pursuing the only rational decision that can be arrived at is to build a LHA. After that it’s just a case of following the breadcrumbs.

…credit to @Poiuytrewq who first suggested scrapping the ageing crew-intensive Albion & Bulwark, moving the RN crew to the 3 remainig Bays, and moving the current RFA crew of the 3 Bays in the short term to Fort Victoria and one or both Waves (and in long term to 3*FSS).

Thank you, appreciated.

[tomuk]

No one has said anything about them getting rid of there fleets yes the UK would give engineering support and Command in the early days however there could and should be a proper training and command program that could and would lead to better trained people across there own navies

No objection. For me, what you are proposing is a lease program with initial training support.

NO I AM NOT PUTTING FORWARD A F'IN lease program I am putting forward a coop training and manning program to every different things

Sorry it is very difficult for me to understand your proposal. I am SURE we cannot "lend" a man power from other navies. Never.

So, the only way to make use of Waves are to lease them. Hardware can be leased, man power cannot.

How on earth can you image a ship, which is commanded by German commander, with 90% of the crew being non-German, 30% of RN sailors, 30% of French sailors and 30% of Italian sailors? At least, the commanding officer will come from either UK, French, or Italian navy, not from German.

That is how the NATO E3s are crewed.

[donald_of_tokyo]

...Sorry it is very difficult for me to understand your proposal. I am SURE we cannot "lend" a man power from other navies. Never.

So, the only way to make use of Waves are to lease them. Hardware can be leased, man power cannot.

How on earth can you image a ship, which is commanded by German commander, with 90% of the crew being non-German, 30% of RN sailors, 30% of French sailors and 30% of Italian sailors? At least, the commanding officer will come from either UK, French, or Italian navy, not from German.

That is how the NATO E3s are crewed.

Thanks. So my point is two fold
- Can this happen in a military ship?
- What is the difference to leasing? I'm sure the "Baltic manned" Wave cannot join Falkland-Mk2 conflict. Coming near the Lebanon might be even politically impossible. The nation providing significant amount of the crew surely has a VETO. Then, why not lease? It is much more easy, and have very very similar outcome, I think?