CANADA

[shark bait]

Nah, with a name like Trudeau they will go with FREMM.

Very ture. Probably go for some mirage jets too!

[jonas]

Nah, with a name like Trudeau they will go with FREMM.

Very ture. Probably go for some mirage jets too!

The French have been pushing the Rafale for a long while now, I give them ten out of ten for their efforts. Unlike the Eurofighter consortium who seem to think that buyers should approach them.

No doubt if the deal for with Egypt for Rafale is anything to go by, the French will offer huge loans guaranteed by their government to allow the Canucks to buy their product. Unfortunately the Canadian procurement system being on a par with it's Indian counterpart, I cannot see any deal being done within the next decade.

[seaspear]

And the cost difference between Rafale and F35

[arfah]

................

[Pseudo]

I'm still sticking with my original guess of F/A-18-E's with CFT's and the enhanced performance F414 will be selected, but the production line will have closed by the time the competition concludes so they'll end up with the F-35 anyway.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I agree the proc system is on par with the Indian one ( perhaps bakshish not being passed around to the same degree, though).

But as for peudo's comments: do those mods exist, or are they dreamware? Didn't USN just up their SHornet order, so there is some more time for the production line remaining? I believe they are going to receive an RFI from the Finnish Airforce; surely that letter won't get sent if the closure date is a known fact (as that air force is planning to take deliveries in the middle of the next decade).

[Pseudo]

I agree the proc system is on par with the Indian one ( perhaps bakshish not being passed around to the same degree, though).

But as for peudo's comments: do those mods exist, or are they dreamware? Didn't USN just up their SHornet order, so there is some more time for the production line remaining? I believe they are going to receive an RFI from the Finnish Airforce; surely that letter won't get sent if the closure date is a known fact (as that air force is planning to take deliveries in the middle of the next decade).

I was being a tad hyperbolic with regard to the competition, but Boeing and Northop Grumman privately funded a prototype Advanced Super Hornet with CFT's and F414EPE's a few years ago but the option wasn't taken up by the USN due to budgetary issues. My line of thinking is that since such upgrades have already been proven and demonstrated it'll allow the F/A-18E to more closely conform to Canadian requirements and give the government the appearance of a reasonable level of commonality with the CF-18's that they'll be replacing along with big savings on the purchase price compared with the LRIP F-35's that the Canadian government will make a big point of comparing it against.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the appearance of a reasonable level of commonality with the CF-18's that they'll be replacing along with big savings on the purchase price compared with the LRIP F-35's that the Canadian government will make a big point of comparing it against.

I agree, officially the SHornets came to Oz as an interim stopgap (but have long since turned into a permanent feature) and that appearance of commonality made it possible to give the rationale of "a stepping stone" to the next-gen F-35 (when in reality the Gvmnt wanted to wait and see if the F35 was going to make it at all).
- now, the extraordinarily flexible(?) Canadian procurement system would probably also allow for a "click of fingers" snap decision to place the order within the time that option remains viable?

[ArmChairCivvy]

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/03/ew-f ... rnet-line/

That was half a year ago... don't have any visibility how far into the future the orders go (but beyond 2017 anyway?)

[Cooper]

The French have been pushing the Rafale for a long while now, I give them ten out of ten for their efforts. Unlike the Eurofighter consortium who seem to think that buyers should approach them.

As I understand it, BAE said it would not pursue any Typhoon sales in Canada because of its involvement in the F35 programme.

Maybe now the Canadians are (supposedly) going to pull out, BAE may now decide to enter the ring, but personally I think they (and the Rafale) will be wasting their time.

Canada will want to source any new jets from the Americans to make up for quitting the F35 project, so they're overwhelmingly likely to go for Super Hornets.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Canada will want to source any new jets from the Americans to make up for quitting the F35 project, so they're overwhelmingly likely to go for Super Hornets.

- any further reasons than just those two being in production (in the said country)?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Boeing and Northop Grumman privately funded a prototype Advanced Super Hornet with CFT's and F414EPE's a few years ago but the option wasn't taken up by the USN due to budgetary issues

Thinking of the Silent Eagle instead, with its frontal-section (only) stealth and the options for extending range it would have made the ideal candidate for the now changed mission requirement, over the vast expanses of Canada:
"Depending on the specific mission, the customer can use the CFTs that are designed for internal carriage or change back to the traditional CFTs for optimum fuel capacity and external weapons carriage."

http://www.defenceaviation.com/2009/03/ ... eagle.html

[seaspear]

All the new Eagle variants I understood to be around the 100 milllion mark from what I understood to have been offered to Saudia Arabia and South Korea .

[Pseudo]

To my mind the question would be whether the F-15SE or any other option offers the sort of savings over the F-35 that the Canadian government is looking for. I can't see many options that'll fulfil that requirement other than the F/A-18E and the Gripen E, though the latter will suffer in comparison due to its single engine, which IIRC Canadians aren't particularly keen on and was a criticism of the F-35.

That said, I think that due to the stated desire to use any savings to bolster the RCN it might open the door to Typhoon or Rafale in a deal that includes the Type 26 or FREMM, but AFAIK that type of deal isn't common for modern western democracies.

[seaspear]

Would another issue requiring aircraft with "extra legs" be because there have been so many bases closed over the last twenty years.

[Pseudo]

Would another issue requiring aircraft with "extra legs" be because there have been so many bases closed over the last twenty years.

Apparently CFT's increase the F/A-18E's combat radius to around 750 miles, which AFAIK isn't quite up there with Typhoon or Rafale, but appears to be more than double that of the CF-18.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Top trumps, re: Silent Eagle

Maximum speed Mach 2.5+ (1,650+ mph, 2,650+ km/h)
Ferry range 2,400 mi / 2,100 nmi (3,900 km)
Combat radius 800+ nm (720 nmi for stealth A/A mission) / (920 miles (1,480 kilometres))

[Pseudo]

Yes, but the Silent Eagle is still going to be expensive, particularly if Canada is the sole operator. That's going to kill it stone dead since whole point of looking at options other than the F-35 is to save money.

My instinct is to say that if they were to go with the Silent Eagle they might as well have gone with the F-35 since they won't then be solely responsible for funding upgrades which they presumably would be as the sole operator of the F-15SE and taking part in a big multinational procurement at least has the potential to lower costs in the future.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Too true... Just interesting to see if Boeing can make their Super even more super, to appeal

[Pseudo]

I think that along with the CFT's the main features of the Advanced Super Hornet were a frontal RCS about half that of the Super Hornet and stealth weapons pods.

[ArmChairCivvy]

along with the CFT's the main features of the Advanced Super Hornet were a frontal RCS about half that of the Super Hornet

A bit more:
but who will pay for the following
- EPE engine
- internal IRST, rather than in a fuel pod on a pylon (no can do any jettisoning it when empty as the kit inside is too expensive)
-"enclosed weapons pod" must be the more stealthy one, no idea how it would look like

Also, if you order now, will you get deliveries around 2025? Min. 25 yrs of use would take you out to 2050, which is way beyond any (currently) planned support.

[arfah]

.................

[seaspear]

A consideration could be of the growler version broadly in line with current U.S.N requirements and logistics with cft no need for centre fuel tank and irst allowing other sensors to be deployed other ash have ability of air to air refueling extending range as required ,The R.A.A.F is likely pairing its growlers and future f35,s to on occassion work together

[ArmChairCivvy]

you mean a Growler w/o the expensive Growler bits?
- for Canada I mean

[seaspear]

Ok I understand the R.A.A.F could be outlaying something like $300million aus per unit for the Growler but Australia has a similar size land mass to Canada and also will be using the Poseidon costing even more plus the Wedgetail 737 ,Canada and Australia have similar sized gdp and economies so it seems a question of political will