Army 2020 Refine

[Gabriele]

Yeah. And it is not a surprise, since CAESAR and M777 are the two candidates in this. For the Strike Brigades, CAESAR is the favorite pick, but the RA might as well still get saddled with the less expensive towed piece.

I wouldn't pick one nor the other, since the BAE Archer is much better. But, again, expense. And the fact that, with VBCI probably out of the picture for MIV, France will want the UK to buy CAESAR or it'll most likely not pick Brimstone for the Tiger attack helo.
It won't be all about capability, unfortunately. In fact, capability could end up being dead last on the list.

[dmereifield]

Yeah. And it is not a surprise, since CAESAR and M777 are the two candidates in this. For the Strike Brigades, CAESAR is the favorite pick, but the RA might as well still get saddled with the less expensive towed piece.

I wouldn't pick one nor the other, since the BAE Archer is much better. But, again, expense.

I appreciate that it's hard to pin down a unit price, but do you (or anyone else) have some rough ballpark numbers for cost, or at least relative (highest to lowest) costs for the 3 pieces discussed?

[Spinflight]

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1470.html

Lists all known contracts and gives an average price.

Caesar about $6-7m, Archer about $5, M777 about $1.7 but with wide variance.

[marktigger]

i think some of the mobility issues may come into play to like what can lift or drop one. A400m will be fine either way but C130J might have issues as might merlin and puma. with one of the options.

[abc123]

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1470.html

Lists all known contracts and gives an average price.

Caesar about $6-7m, Archer about $5, M777 about $1.7 but with wide variance.

M777 is about 4-5 mil. USD per piece.

[mr.fred]

You are right of course, much better to open fire when 10 km or more into the range of the opposition's artillery battery, and fire smaller and less lethal rounds, and without access to the vast variety of ER and special-payload ammunition available for the 155mm.
A real bargain if you are seeking the fastest way to lose an artillery clash.

Better 10km than the 20km you'd be talking about with a 120mm mortar.
Plus why should you design your field artillery around counter-battery work?
By the logic you propose, we should do away with 155mm as well, replacing all artillery with MLRS, firing the biggest missiles it can fit.

[ArmChairCivvy]

M777 is about 4-5 mil. USD per piece.

Funny that when you can get a brand new K9 with a gun (155 mm) for the same.

[abc123]

M777 is about 4-5 mil. USD per piece.

Funny that when you can get a brand new K9 with a gun (155 mm) for the same.

Don't know about that, but the cost is about 4-5 mil. USD.

Personally, I would rather take something like CEASAR. A few millions more expencive ( 7-8 mil. USD per piece ) but mobile.

But, let's not fool ourselves up- they will not buy anything.

[Gabriele]

Better 10km than the 20km you'd be talking about with a 120mm mortar.
Plus why should you design your field artillery around counter-battery work?
By the logic you propose, we should do away with 155mm as well, replacing all artillery with MLRS, firing the biggest missiles it can fit.

Boy, you brought counter-battery into the frame yourself with your previous comment. Are you taking the piss?

[marktigger]

replace the 81mm mortar at Bn level with a 120mm if you are so determined to get them
replace the L118 with a 155mm that is mobile and easy to transport

[ArmChairCivvy]

those folks whose number here has increased recently, and who celebrate their Christmas on 7th January, have done a good job in changing the mood on the forum to antagonistic, rather than towards any festive spirits
... just saying

[ArmChairCivvy]

replace the 81mm mortar at Bn level with a 120mm if you are so determined to get them
replace the L118 with a 155mm that is mobile and easy to transport

Dnt think either is a good idea; whereas, at BG level (and up) it should be out of the question to operate w/o 155 mm (and/ or rocketry ) support
- that said, they can be attached at bde level (from which BGs are also formed)

[marktigger]

they could always form Infantry support bns like 2 or 3 TA inf bns were roled in the 80's with multiple support companies but with heavy mortars instead of the 81.

[mr.fred]

Boy, you brought counter-battery into the frame yourself with your previous comment. Are you taking the piss?

I was talking about the need to evade counter-battery fires, not conduct them ones self.

Try to keep a civil tone, there's a good chap.

[mr.fred]

those folks whose number here has increased recently, and who celebrate their Christmas on 7th January, have done a good job in changing the mood on the forum to antagonistic, rather than towards any festive spirits
... just saying

Russians, where?
I don't think Gabriele is a Russian and I can't work out who else you mean (other than me, obviously, and I just have bouts of inappropriate sarcasm)

[Spinflight]

Nowt wrong with inappropriate sarcasm! Especially when it appears someone has had their cornflakes pissed on.

Who is suggesting getting rid of the 105s?

Logistics and suppression are far more important than firepower, especially for light infantry.

[Ron5]

I was reading, not that long ago, that the Uk was working on either a brand new 105 or a major upgrade. Saw some interesting drawings.

Did this get the chop?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Russians, where?*
I don't think Gabriele is a Russian

You are so right; just count to 1,2,3
- it is quite obvious how the different story lines are supporting each other, and guiding the topics
- so you can tally up (the three)

It is not my blog, I have no access to classified information... so, lets carry on , regardless (even up the Khyber)

* under every bed, of course! (Sorry, that was for the Reds)

[abc123]

those folks whose number here has increased recently, and who celebrate their Christmas on 7th January, have done a good job in changing the mood on the forum to antagonistic, rather than towards any festive spirits
... just saying

Two things:

a) my Christmas is tomorrow

b) Orthodox churches celebrate their Christmas also on 25th December, only some of them don't use Gregorian calendar

And yes, English isn't my native language so I appologize again because of my very bad English skills... But I'm not a Russian.

[bobp]

And yes, English isn't my native language so I appologize again because of my very bad English skills..

Your English is fine probably as good as mine is these days. So no need for apologies for that. But I agree with ACC about the lack of Xmas Spirit and the fact that some people seem to be antagonistic towards one another in their discussions.

[Ron5]

Christmas?

Broke my arm playing sports, the wife is out of town, and the Niners are in last place and you ask me to get in the spirit? Bah humbug.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Christmas?

Broke my arm playing sports, the wife is out of town, and the Niners are in last place and you ask me to get in the spirit? Bah humbug.

Ron, I feel for you; I will stick with you over the Xmas break (your typing hand still working?) and if you think of it,one of those things you listed is actually a bonus

[bobp]

Christmas is a good time to get together with your families, son is at Aldershot and Daughter is in London, so sadly I'm on my own. Will be going to Church as for me its all about Jesus.

[marktigger]

Won't see my Family till January and am on nights till 29th

[dmereifield]

There will be guns in 3 RHA and 4 RA and STRIKE 155 is a funded programme, 3 RHA reaffirms. Apparently Jane's got it wrong at the briefing. There were, indeed, several things that did not sound right, as i had written. Some clashing announcements and stuff.

Updated with latest: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -than.html

Also, some clarity about London Regiment transition and a little boost to the reserve tank regiment. Does not make up for the lost MBTs, but better than nothing at all...

Gabriele, could you please clarify, does the reserve tank regiment actually have it's own fully operational tanks (and if so, how many?), or are they trained to be able to step in replace regulars in the regular tank regiments? I'm trying to clarify what number of operational MBTs we will have, 108 or 108 + X reserve regiment units. Further, what happens to the tanks from the disbanded regiment, do they go into reserve, get converted to training units, or perhaps sold?