Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Caribbean]

You have to bear in mind that these are very small communities. The largest population-wise is Bermuda, with a population of around 64,000 (of whom around 70% are locals). Cayman has a population of around 56,000, but around half are work permit expats (Jamaican, British, Canadians largely). There are probably less than 20,000 genuine "sons of the soil", as they like to call themselves, with the balance made up of non-working expats.

As a rough rule of thumb, their budgets are 1/1000th of the equivalent UK budget. A $1m expenditure for them is equivalent to a $1b expenditure in the UK

[Repulse]

True, and it will need some central investment, but I think a small amount of investment can have a significant impact. Perhaps, just adding a handful of trained additional engineer and medical troops (probably a 100 overall) to the Caribbean units, a handful of configurable PODs and chartering a suitable HADR vessel for the hurricane season would be sufficient.

[Tempest414]

You have to bear in mind that these are very small communities. The largest population-wise is Bermuda, with a population of around 64,000 (of whom around 70% are locals). Cayman has a population of around 56,000, but around half are work permit expats (Jamaican, British, Canadians largely). There are probably less than 20,000 genuine "sons of the soil", as they like to call themselves, with the balance made up of non-working expats.

As a rough rule of thumb, their budgets are 1/1000th of the equivalent UK budget. A $1m expenditure for them is equivalent to a $1b expenditure in the UK

This is why for me the UK should supply and maintain 3 to 4 King Air MPA's with the BOT's stumping up air crew a ground crew say about 150 people split into 3 flights on different Islands this would bring a lot to the table

[SW1]

Which all point to the foreign office and development funding being used for the infrastructure resilience, capacity building and the like and the MoD doing the maritime security task.

[SD67]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

[wargame_insomniac]

Local enlarged local BOT units with enhance HADR capabilities, and constabulary patrol craft make sense - in fact a lot of this is in place already. However, it makes zero sense for this to divert funds (as in reality this is what would happen) from the UK services to do more as you will reduce their integrated global capabilities / networks and overall it would cost more.

I meant to talk about HADR being in the blurred area between responsibility of MOD and Foriegn Commonwealth & Development Office. Part of the intention would be to get FC&DO to pay for what I have suggested as part of overseas aid budget.

Therefore it would be intended to be in addition to RN / RFA budgets, to suplement it rather than replace it.

[wargame_insomniac]

Changing the subject… Given the biggest traditional threats from Russia are under the sea and potential missile attack, then with some investment I think the T31s can actually play a key role in the UKs defence.

With the announcement of the addition of MK41 VLS, they are now capable of operating a larger number and larger AAW missiles. So my plan would be to have all 5 of them as an integral part of the UK / Northern Europe air / missile defence - capable of BMD and with further enhancements such as CEC.

The Dutch obviously have their three Iver Huitfeldt. With Norway also supposedly looking at the T26/T31 a similar ASW/AAW combination would effectively cover the North Atlantic, especially if the RN could get in a couple more T26s.

Presumably using the T31 more as an arsenal ship, with T45 providing the sensors and controlling missiles launched by T31.

[Repulse]

Presumably using the T31 more as an arsenal ship, with T45 providing the sensors and controlling missiles launched by T31.

The T45 can be part of the picture, though will be assigned primarily to the carriers. I was thinking more about the integration with other land, airborne and satellite assets.

[SW1]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

Yes many countries in Africa and the Caribbean are being enticed by “free” Chinese money until the piper requests payment years later. This is causing a lot of the anti western feeling. We should be using are large development fund to target our key long term allies in these regions with investments without the Chinese tentacles attached

[wargame_insomniac]

Presumably using the T31 more as an arsenal ship, with T45 providing the sensors and controlling missiles launched by T31.

The T45 can be part of the picture, though will be assigned primarily to the carriers. I was thinking more about the integration with other land, airborne and satellite assets.

Well the key component to that is presumably the Aegis Ashore SPY-7 radar that I believe the UK ordered a year ago from US for anti-ballistic missile defence, but I don't remember seeing much about it since. I don't know if that reflects the long lead times for compnents of Spy-7 radar. Presumably the UK radar will add to NATO's ABM coverage from initial Aegis Ashore sites in Romania and Poland.

From memory I believe that this is the same radar that Japan was buying two of, initially for planned Aegis Ashore but now intended for two * twenty thousand ton anti-ballistic missile warships.

[wargame_insomniac]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

Yes many countries in Africa and the Caribbean are being enticed by “free” Chinese money until the piper requests payment years later. This is causing a lot of the anti western feeling. We should be using are large development fund to target our key long term allies in these regions with investments without the Chinese tentacles attached

Yes, not to mention central and south America - and that is why there was previous discussion about having some cheaper, smaller ships (than say the Bay Class LSD's), optimised for patrolling these areas, working with local navies and being able to provide either HADR or a platoon of RM Commandos by boat / helicopter if required. Such ships have often been referred to as High Cap OPV's, such as peviously discussed Vard 7-313.

[SW1]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

Yes many countries in Africa and the Caribbean are being enticed by “free” Chinese money until the piper requests payment years later. This is causing a lot of the anti western feeling. We should be using are large development fund to target our key long term allies in these regions with investments without the Chinese tentacles attached

Yes, not to mention central and south America - and that is why there was previous discussion about having some cheaper, smaller ships (than say the Bay Class LSD's), optimised for patrolling these areas, working with local navies and being able to provide either HADR or a platoon of RM Commandos by boat / helicopter if required. Such ships have often been referred to as High Cap OPV's, such as peviously discussed Vard 7-313.

It’s prevalent all around the Atlantic basin.

No I would be using type 31 in that role it has the boat bays the RM embarked boarding teams and a helicopter with gd situational awareness and the legs for operating in the Atlantic.

[wargame_insomniac]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

Yes many countries in Africa and the Caribbean are being enticed by “free” Chinese money until the piper requests payment years later. This is causing a lot of the anti western feeling. We should be using are large development fund to target our key long term allies in these regions with investments without the Chinese tentacles attached

Yes, not to mention central and south America - and that is why there was previous discussion about having some cheaper, smaller ships (than say the Bay Class LSD's), optimised for patrolling these areas, working with local navies and being able to provide either HADR or a platoon of RM Commandos by boat / helicopter if required. Such ships have often been referred to as High Cap OPV's, such as peviously discussed Vard 7-313.

It’s prevalent all around the Atlantic basin.

No I would be using type 31 in that role it has the boat bays the RM embarked boarding teams and a helicopter with gd situational awareness and the legs for operating in the Atlantic.

I agree that one advantage of the T31;s being oversized (at least for their initial armanenet and equipment) is that they should be good sea faring ships. The question is then where best for them to be deployed. Their first priority will be to replace the remaining T23 GP Frigates. So I assume one in the Persian Gulf, maybe one for UK home waters (to shadow Russian surface ships near UK maritime zone), and especially if upgraded with NSM Canisters and Mk41 VLS, then acting as escort for one or both of LRG.

The other consideration is the difference in sending a warship to an area versus sending an OPV / LSV type ship. The latter would probably be considered less threatening or escalatory than than the former. Look at how widely welcomed Spey and Tamar are in the Indo-Pacific. Some might joke of them being mobile cocktail parties, but they have been great at the soft power influencing, working with local navies and visiting countries that in some cases the RN has nt been to in many decades.

Take what Spey and Tamar are doing, add some weight, length and beam, and then you have a High Cap OPv / LSV. The higher bean will help in launching larger ship's boats and USVs/XLUUVs if needed. A hangar would allow helicopter and UAVs, with ability to conduct repairs in an enclosed space. Won't be treated in same way as if RN sent a proper warship. Able to bring HADR and medical help at cheaper cost than say a Bay.

[SW1]

With regard to HADR in the Caribbean, there is more than one way to address that.
The current policy has several parts. In addition to the RN/ RFA naval presence, there has been:

• Enhanced co-operation with France and the Netherlands;
  Placement of UK military command & co-ordination teams on-island during hurricane season;
  Formation of local "Regiments" (so far mainly platoon/ company strength), with training focussed on engineering, SAR and support to the civil authorities;
  Additional helicopters and recruitment of additional pilots, part financed by the UK;
  Seperate Coast Guard (as opposed to Marine Police departments - often regarded as the place that Police careers go to die), with additional, larger boats. There is also a possibility of the larger islands forming their own Life Boat teams, modelled on the RNLI.

Slightly unrelated - there is massive Chinese investment in Jamaica, it's being built into one of their key hubs for global container traffic. Chinese interests already own the Port of Kingston and much of the Panama canal zone. You wouldn't want to underestimate the importance of the Caribbean.

Yes many countries in Africa and the Caribbean are being enticed by “free” Chinese money until the piper requests payment years later. This is causing a lot of the anti western feeling. We should be using are large development fund to target our key long term allies in these regions with investments without the Chinese tentacles attached

Yes, not to mention central and south America - and that is why there was previous discussion about having some cheaper, smaller ships (than say the Bay Class LSD's), optimised for patrolling these areas, working with local navies and being able to provide either HADR or a platoon of RM Commandos by boat / helicopter if required. Such ships have often been referred to as High Cap OPV's, such as peviously discussed Vard 7-313.

It’s prevalent all around the Atlantic basin.

No I would be using type 31 in that role it has the boat bays the RM embarked boarding teams and a helicopter with gd situational awareness and the legs for operating in the Atlantic.

I agree that one advantage of the T31;s being oversized (at least for their initial armanenet and equipment) is that they should be good sea faring ships. The question is then where best for them to be deployed. Their first priority will be to replace the remaining T23 GP Frigates. So I assume one in the Persian Gulf, maybe one for UK home waters (to shadow Russian surface ships near UK maritime zone), and especially if upgraded with NSM Canisters and Mk41 VLS, then acting as escort for one or both of LRG.

The other consideration is the difference in sending a warship to an area versus sending an OPV / LSV type ship. The latter would probably be considered less threatening or escalatory than than the former. Look at how widely welcomed Spey and Tamar are in the Indo-Pacific. Some might joke of them being mobile cocktail parties, but they have been great at the soft power influencing, working with local navies and visiting countries that in some cases the RN has nt been to in many decades.

Take what Spey and Tamar are doing, add some weight, length and beam, and then you have a High Cap OPv / LSV. The higher bean will help in launching larger ship's boats and USVs/XLUUVs if needed. A hangar would allow helicopter and UAVs, with ability to conduct repairs in an enclosed space. Won't be treated in same way as if RN sent a proper warship. Able to bring HADR and medical help at cheaper cost than say a Bay.

I would deploy them in areas we consider important to us first and foremost. For me that is our dependant territories in the Caribbean and Falklands followed by a tasking in the Indian Ocean. One could take over fleet escort in uk waters role though as rivers are withdrawn from overseas they could do a home waters protection role but then I would be ordering a few more type 31 and replacing the rivers entirely.

I really don’t know where this yarn about we’re sending opvs because their less threatening came from but I could guess. Probably some PR fluff because they were having to replace frigates with patrol vessels because they had messed around for longer than an army vehicle program to decide what frigates to build. But to me it’s a load of nonsense.

[Poiuytrewq]

If there isn’t enough money to crew the Waves where is the money coming from for extra anything?

New classes or additional batches are pie in the sky without additional funding.

[SW1]

If there isn’t enough money to crew the Waves where is the money coming from for extra anything?

New classes or additional batches are pie in the sky without additional funding.

The waves and the rfa have been an issue for a decade logistics and support in general just weren’t considered a priority, when there is talk of support to allies it’s always always which fighty bits can we send never could it be enablers instead. If you look at what the US requested from us immediately after 9/11 it would have given a good indication of how I would have strategically positioned investment.

I remember several people yes naval ones before some start saying privately after the sdsr in 2010 that the cost of carrier strike was too much and it was storing up significant problems I guess those chickens are coming home to roast why because no one bothered to explain how they were going to be supported or how much resources were gonna be sucked in to make it a reality.

You also could ask why 5 tides weren’t ordered and the rfa become a single tanker class years ago there is little thought or fwd thinking about whole force sustainment.

But principally above all else why hasn’t more allocation gone from equipment to personnel and infrastructure it’s been a slow car crash a decade plus in making in particular retention it’s endemic across the whole establishment.

I wouldn’t be using any extra money. I would be using the money differently. I mentioned before and was derided that what needs to happen is we have RN has a high end escort of around 8 that support the two task groups for asw and aaw and the national ssbn req and a fleet of around 10 frigates for U.K. patrol , fwd security patrol and escort operating out of two distinct bases on either side of Africa with a handful of HMS protector esq vessels used for offboard systems/hydrography around the U.K. and ice patrol and that’s it with what ever was left spent on the ssn fleet.

My opinion hasn’t changed on that.

[wargame_insomniac]

I wouldn’t be using any extra money. I would be using the money differently. I mentioned before and was derided that what needs to happen is we have RN has a high end escort of around 8 that support the two task groups for asw and aaw and the national ssbn req and a fleet of around 10 frigates for U.K. patrol , fwd security patrol and escort operating out of two distinct bases on either side of Africa with a handful of HMS protector esq vessels used for offboard systems/hydrography around the U.K. and ice patrol and that’s it with what ever was left spent on the ssn fleet.

My opinion hasn’t changed on that.

Well the RN has 6*T45 in service for high end AAW escort, and has now 8*T26 ordered for high end ASW escort. I would presume that the vast majority of those 14 ships will be UK based, with at last two of each allocated to both carriers, another couple of T26 allocated to CASD / TAPS. I am not clear if you are suggesting disposing of 6 high end AAW or ASW escorts early to get the number down to the 8 that you quoted?

I would then add maybe 1*T31 for escorting Russian warships in UK waters, and another for escorting LRG (N), thus leaving 3*T31 deployed EoS (including LRG (S) and Operation Kipion).

So depending on how many of those 10 frigates you mentioned being allocated to UK waters and how many EoS, this will affect how close we are on the assumed split of RN escorts between UK / EoS.

I have agreed before that I would nt have ordered the 5 River B2s, at least as they are currently equipped, but also said that having built them, I think we should make best use of them until they are nearing end of useful service life.

All of the above assumes livig within current RN Budget means. We won't know for a while longer whether RN has got ANY more future capital expenditure budget available in the next few years. I have said before that I believe that the only possible additional funds to come are if, and that is currently a big "if", the RN has any future potential capex Budget available from potential order of 5*T32 and / or maybe up to 6*MRSS. Until we know for sure that thos funds are available, then have nothing available for new ships.

[SW1]

I wouldn’t be using any extra money. I would be using the money differently. I mentioned before and was derided that what needs to happen is we have RN has a high end escort of around 8 that support the two task groups for asw and aaw and the national ssbn req and a fleet of around 10 frigates for U.K. patrol , fwd security patrol and escort operating out of two distinct bases on either side of Africa with a handful of HMS protector esq vessels used for offboard systems/hydrography around the U.K. and ice patrol and that’s it with what ever was left spent on the ssn fleet.

My opinion hasn’t changed on that.

I am not clear if you are suggesting disposing of 6 high end AAW or ASW escorts early to get the number down to the 8 that you quoted?


So depending on how many of those 10 frigates you mentioned being allocated to UK waters and how many EoS, this will affect how close we are on the assumed split of RN escorts between UK / EoS.

Yes I am saying they will be disposed of. It maybe anywhere between 8 and 10 but yes that’s the max number of high end escorts.

There wouldn’t be LRG’s and the number I would put east of suez would be 3 largely in the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea. 7 would remain in the European and Atlantic regions.

[Repulse]

Let’s not over react - whilst I agree that these cuts seem foolish, I suspect there is a plan, though it’s probably still based too much on jam tomorrow and a hope the defence budget will increase. I actually think the RN needs to wise up and ensure it has a credible strategy for a 2.25% GDP budget, and a backstop 2% structure. Ignoring the fact that the public priority is cost of living and NHS, and planning that money will become available, means that it is over exposed to the political winds.

For the 2.25% budget the RN should primarily focus on what it has and what is on order with a realistic view on what it can add in addition to what is already on order. This means the T26s, T31s, SSNs and FSSs, plus few other essential ships to balance the fleet / replace ships that will be beyond reasonable maintenance. This means very few additional ships till after 2035. It also means some painful decisions on areas such as the RFA.

In summary, I think it means:

- No T32
- Forget MRSS, and get both LPDs in service
- Move the MRoSS and OSV to the RN, and sell a Bay Class to ensure that the RFA can properly support its primary logistics role
- Keep the five B2 Rivers in their current role with modest upgrades where required. Redirect and maximise the T31 to be a AAW frigate assigned to the JEF region.
- Build / convert five Littoral Support Ships, three of which will be based in the UK to replace in part the role being played by the B1 Rivers. Two should be based in the Gulf to replace the current MCM/Bay combination.
- Build a new multi-role (Karel Doorman style) AOR to be based from Oman to take over from Argus and provide resupply capabilities EoS.
- Cancel the aspiration to have two LRGs, the two LPDs and remaining two LSDs will be based in the UK, with the ability to sail with the T31s in JEF region plus the ability to sail with the CSG as part of a globally deployable Expeditionary Strike Group.
- Keep focus on AUKUS with the longer term aim to increase the SSN fleet

Wish list:
- Add another T26 to the order so one can support Kipion

[Tempest414]

What is needed is a good balance of high end and workhorses

6 to 8 x AAW escorts
9 x ASW escorts
8 x GP escorts
10 x OPV's

All AAW and ASW escorts would be held in the UK along with the CSG & LRG and then the GP escorts and OPV's would be split 4 escorts and 4 OPV's East of Suez to cover the Gulf , Indian Ocean , and allow some deployments into the Pacific also as and when a CSG deploys EoS one escort from this area would join the group

The remaining 4 GP escorts and 6 OPV's would be split between the North and South Atlantic

[Scimitar54]

If the number of ASW and GP escorts was increased to 10 of each and the number of AAW escorts was to be not less than 8, I would consider this to be the basis of a balanced and credible (2 x Escort Flotilla) RN Surface Fleet.

It would then possess sufficient allowance for alongside maintenance and refits, whilst still maintaining sufficient “deployable” and “at sea” vessels.

[Poiuytrewq]

I actually think the RN needs to wise up and ensure it has a credible strategy for a 2.25% GDP budget, and a backstop 2% structure.

Completely agree with this.

- Build a new multi-role (Karel Doorman style) AOR to be based from Oman to take over from Argus and provide resupply capabilities EoS.

I fully expect something like this added to the MRSS to compensate for the lose of the Waves.

It will arrive in the 2030’s and everything will be fine.

These jam tomorrow promises have zero credibility anymore.

[Poiuytrewq]

What is needed is a good balance of high end and workhorses

Agreed but many are also too quick to forget the enablers.

6 to 8 x AAW escorts
9 x ASW escorts
8 x GP escorts
10 x OPV's

Perhaps this is more realistic.

2x CVF
4x T83
8x T26
8x T31
5x RB2
5x HiCap OPVs
2x LHD
4x MRSS
4x Tides
3x FSS
2x MROSS
3x LSV
8x SSN
4x SSBN

It’s potent but it needs 6 Tides to be balanced.

[Caribbean]

Build a new multi-role (Karel Doorman style) AOR to be based from Oman to take over from Argus and provide resupply capabilities EoS.

While I agree with the capability, I think it would be better to go with the AOR version of the Tides (e.g. HNoMS Maud), for commonality's sake. Possibly also scale up from the 27,000t version to the 37,000t version, though that may not be neccessary

[Tempest414]

What is needed is a good balance of high end and workhorses

Agreed but many are also too quick to forget the enablers.

6 to 8 x AAW escorts
9 x ASW escorts
8 x GP escorts
10 x OPV's

Perhaps this is more realistic.

2x CVF
4x T83
8x T26
8x T31
5x RB2
5x HiCap OPVs
2x LHD
4x MRSS
4x Tides
3x FSS
2x MROSS
3x LSV
8x SSN
4x SSBN

It’s potent but it needs 6 Tides to be balanced.

I would be happier with

4 x SSBN's
9 x SSN's
2 x Carriers
2 x LHD's
6 x T-45/83
8 x T-26
8 x T-31
4 x RB2's
6 x HiCap OPV's
6 x MROSS
3 x FSS
4 x Karl Doorman
4 x Tides