General UK Defence Discussion

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

No point attempting to creat 3 armoured brigades if you can’t keep much more than a single armoured regiment in an advance for longer than about 6 days without running out of power packs and spare and having to pull over as a result.

There has been nothing over the last 20 years that suggests the basic assumptions behind fres was anything other than correct in fact the last 12 months probably reinforces it more. If it wants to move out of a balanced future structure it needs to answer in what way and why. If there indeed is to be an enduring European commitment then it needs to be decided at what scale that enduring commitment is to be at and if it brigade level how it manage it with the assigned budget and over what time scale.

If it continues to insist on ridiculous grand notions of force structure at scales it won’t generate for decades and then change them every 5 years then the shambles that it has created over the past 20 years will continue.

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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns

SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by inch »

When is the defence refresh supposedly published or we might get an inclin to what they thinking or more important what kit are they going to get ,retain or ,increase ,ie like tank numbers , submarine numbers etc,etc ,or is this just something kicked down the road yet again by budget etc ,yes we need to do something but let's just talk about it and do nothing again ,like I think most on here have been saying , chickens are coming home to roost now big style

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

inch wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:43 When is the defence refresh supposedly published or we might get an inclin to what they thinking or more important what kit are they going to get ,retain or ,increase ,ie like tank numbers , submarine numbers etc,etc ,or is this just something kicked down the road yet again by budget etc ,yes we need to do something but let's just talk about it and do nothing again ,like I think most on here have been saying , chickens are coming home to roost now big style
I heard March, to many defence reviews have focused on kit this needs to be more about what force is to fielded and when and how sustainable it is
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

I think we'll wait and see, i don't think it'll be that much.
Politically this issue isn't very high up.
Before anyone in the MoD starts any shopping trips they need to think how all these new posts are going to be filled.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 15:51
inch wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:43 When is the defence refresh supposedly published or we might get an inclin to what they thinking or more important what kit are they going to get ,retain or ,increase ,ie like tank numbers , submarine numbers etc,etc ,or is this just something kicked down the road yet again by budget etc ,yes we need to do something but let's just talk about it and do nothing again ,like I think most on here have been saying , chickens are coming home to roost now big style
I heard March, to many defence reviews have focused on kit this needs to be more about what force is to fielded and when and how sustainable it is
I believe its the 7th March
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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:37
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.
As I have said before NATO needs to come up with areas of operation like Norway , Sweden & Finland forming 1st Nordic corps & the British , Denmark & the 3 Baltic form the 2nd Baltic Corps and when that happens then we can get our heads around what we need.

For me I see the 3rd Division would be the main formation as said with 1 x Deep fires & 3 armoured brigades forming the leading group and command for the other countries brigades to form around this would mean that said Baltic corps would be made up of 1 x Deep fires Brigade , 4 x armoured Brigades , 4 x Mechanised Brigades , 3 Logistics brigades , 2 x Engineering brigades and Signals brigade

This would mean the 1st , 16AA plus the RM can be used as needed

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:13
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:37
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.
As I have said before NATO needs to come up with areas of operation like Norway , Sweden & Finland forming 1st Nordic corps & the British , Denmark & the 3 Baltic form the 2nd Baltic Corps and when that happens then we can get our heads around what we need.

For me I see the 3rd Division would be the main formation as said with 1 x Deep fires & 3 armoured brigades forming the leading group and command for the other countries brigades to form around this would mean that said Baltic corps would be made up of 1 x Deep fires Brigade , 4 x armoured Brigades , 4 x Mechanised Brigades , 3 Logistics brigades , 2 x Engineering brigades and Signals brigade

This would mean the 1st , 16AA plus the RM can be used as needed
I think our contribution to NATO will be centred on the JEF.

The idea that’s we are headed for 3 armoured brigades and a deep fires brigade is imo pie in the sky and will be doomed to even further failure from here.

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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 09:58 I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need
I’d put Ajax and challenger into their own brigade along the lines of single US army armoured brigade. I assume ares could carry an infantry squad if we had a few more in that configuration.

I’d put boxer into there own brigade as a medium mech force may need some different modules and work from there.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 10:52
Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 09:58 I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need
I’d put Ajax and challenger into their own brigade along the lines of single US army armoured brigade. I assume ares could carry an infantry squad if we had a few more in that configuration.

I’d put boxer into there own brigade as a medium mech force may need some different modules and work from there.
we don't have enough Ajax for that we would need to double the order to make that work

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 11:57
SW1 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 10:52
Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 09:58 I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need
I’d put Ajax and challenger into their own brigade along the lines of single US army armoured brigade. I assume ares could carry an infantry squad if we had a few more in that configuration.

I’d put boxer into there own brigade as a medium mech force may need some different modules and work from there.
we don't have enough Ajax for that we would need to double the order to make that work
You would need about 400 for the single brigade and we would only be having 1. 1 cavalry regiment. 5 tank sqns, 4 infantry company’s in three combined arms battalions and an artillery regiment.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 12:03
Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 11:57
SW1 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 10:52
Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 09:58 I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need
I’d put Ajax and challenger into their own brigade along the lines of single US army armoured brigade. I assume ares could carry an infantry squad if we had a few more in that configuration.

I’d put boxer into there own brigade as a medium mech force may need some different modules and work from there.
we don't have enough Ajax for that we would need to double the order to make that work
You would need about 400 for the single brigade and we would only be having 1
So how would your single brigade look like

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 10:52
Tempest414 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 09:58 I agree it would not happen for a while but with

1000 Boxers funded plus 400 more wanted
589 Ajax funded
65 M270A2 funded 75 wanted
148 Challenger 3 funded plus more under review 190 wanted
AS-90 replacement on going

1 x Deep fires brigade and 3 x Armoured brigades are achievable over time if we increase the Ch3 order to 190 which I think will happen now

Deep fires brigade

2 x Armoured Cavalry = 132 Ajax / PMRS
2 x AS-90 regt = 36 guns , 50 PMRS
2 x M270 regt = 36 M270 , 50 PMRS

3 x Armoured brigades

3 x Armoured Cavalry = 198 Ajax / PMRS
3 x Armoured regt = 138 CH3 , 90 Boxer
6 x Infantry Battlaions = 600 Boxer
1 x AS90 regt = 18 guns , 25 PMRS
1 x M270 regt = 18 M270 , PMRS

Ajax/ PMRS = 480 leaving 109 vehicles
Challenger = 138 would leave 52 vehicles if we 190
Boxer = 690 leaving 310 vehicles
M270A2 = 54 leaving 10 vehicles 20 if we get 75
As90 replacement = 54 we buy what we need
I’d put Ajax and challenger into their own brigade along the lines of single US army armoured brigade. I assume ares could carry an infantry squad if we had a few more in that configuration.

I’d put boxer into there own brigade as a medium mech force may need some different modules and work from there.
I think after looking at the US Army ABCT's the current UK armoured Brigades under FS work well with

1 x Cavatry regt
1 x Armoured regt
2 x infantry battalions
1 x REME battalion
1 x Logistics regt
1 x med regt

What they are missing is a combined Artillery regt made up of 2 batteries of SP guns , 1 Battery of M270A2 , 1 x Air defence troop and 1 x UAV troop

Given the news over the last few days we need to push our main effort into re configuring the 3rd Division as fast as possible to have

1 x Deep fires with

2 x Cavalry regt's = Warrior
2 x AS-90 regt's
1 x M270 regt
1 x Mech infantry battalion = Bulldog with RWS fitted 30mm , 40mm GMG and Javelin

1 x Armoured brigade

1 x Cavalry regt = Warrior
1 x type 56 Armoured regt Ch-2
2 x infantry battalions = Warrior
1 x Combined artillery regt

2 x Armoured Battalion battle groups

1 x Cavaly company = jackal
1 x armoured Sqn = CH2
1 x infantry battalion = Warrior
1 x Support group

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -nato-vjtf


A British Army light mechanised brigade is to provide the framework lead of the NATO Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (Land) (VJTF(L)) in 2024, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has told Janes.

VJTF(L) 2024's UK contingent is to comprise two light mechanised battalions equipped with Foxhound patrol vehicles, a light cavalry regiment with Jackal patrol vehicles, and an artillery regiment equipped with 105 mm towed Light Guns, the ministry told Janes on 17 February.

According to the ministry, the 7th Light Mechanised Brigade will have the 2nd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment and the 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, as its infantry component, along with the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, 4th Regiment Royal Artillery, 32 Engineer Regiment, 6 Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, 1 Close Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, and 5 Medical Regiment. These units have a normal combined strength of about 3,000 personnel.

All the units assigned to the 7 Brigade for its NATO mission are drawn from the 1st (United Kingdom) Division, which the British Army says is its lead formation for the “delivery of land operations outside the Euro-Atlantic area” and operations on NATO's flanks.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Would this be backed up by the 16AA high readiness battalion battle group and LRG/N

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Gtal »

105mm and Jackal? What year is it, 2012? If Taliban insurgents were still the main focus that would be fine..
Frankly underwhelming considering the context.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Gtal wrote: 27 Feb 2023, 20:15 105mm and Jackal? What year is it, 2012? If Taliban insurgents were still the main focus that would be fine..
Frankly underwhelming considering the context.
At first sight yes but it depends what it is working with. If it is in a combined artillery regiment of

1 x HQ Battery
1 x Battery of 105 SP Jackal
1 x Battery of HIMARS
1 x AD Troop
1 x UAV Troop

If this is added to a Infantry Battalion that also has Javelin , SP 120mm Mortar & Brimstone Over-watch you now have a Battalion Battle group with in-depth fire support able to engage the enemy between 1km and 150km's

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by whitelancer »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Feb 2023, 08:42 At first sight yes but it depends what it is working with. If it is in a combined artillery regiment of

1 x HQ Battery
1 x Battery of 105 SP Jackal
1 x Battery of HIMARS
1 x AD Troop
1 x UAV Troop

If this is added to a Infantry Battalion that also has Javelin , SP 120mm Mortar & Brimstone Over-watch you now have a Battalion Battle group with in-depth fire support able to engage the enemy between 1km and 150km's
Now doesn't that look much like a Russian Battalion Tactical Group. They worked well!

In fact what you have their is an Artillery Battle Group with an Infantry Battalion providing Close protection with a very limited ability to seize or hold ground.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:27
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:13
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:37
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.
As I have said before NATO needs to come up with areas of operation like Norway , Sweden & Finland forming 1st Nordic corps & the British , Denmark & the 3 Baltic form the 2nd Baltic Corps and when that happens then we can get our heads around what we need.

For me I see the 3rd Division would be the main formation as said with 1 x Deep fires & 3 armoured brigades forming the leading group and command for the other countries brigades to form around this would mean that said Baltic corps would be made up of 1 x Deep fires Brigade , 4 x armoured Brigades , 4 x Mechanised Brigades , 3 Logistics brigades , 2 x Engineering brigades and Signals brigade

This would mean the 1st , 16AA plus the RM can be used as needed
I think our contribution to NATO will be centred on the JEF.

The idea that’s we are headed for 3 armoured brigades and a deep fires brigade is imo pie in the sky and will be doomed to even further failure from here.
I would tend to agree, without a massive injection of cash, to persuade people to remain in the Army and boost recruitment, improve living conditions and fund the levels of replacement equipment and stores needed, it's all entirely academic.

As things stand, I can see the Army heading for 65,000 regulars as the numbers steadily drop....

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

whitelancer wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 00:23
Tempest414 wrote: 28 Feb 2023, 08:42 At first sight yes but it depends what it is working with. If it is in a combined artillery regiment of

1 x HQ Battery
1 x Battery of 105 SP Jackal
1 x Battery of HIMARS
1 x AD Troop
1 x UAV Troop

If this is added to a Infantry Battalion that also has Javelin , SP 120mm Mortar & Brimstone Over-watch you now have a Battalion Battle group with in-depth fire support able to engage the enemy between 1km and 150km's
Now doesn't that look much like a Russian Battalion Tactical Group. They worked well!

In fact what you have their is an Artillery Battle Group with an Infantry Battalion providing Close protection with a very limited ability to seize or hold ground.
The Russian's lack of ability to use its formations is well seen it is not the formation but the lack of training , command and logistics that have done for there battle groups

On your second point it depends on what type of Infantry unit the artillery is attach to if it just a Mechanised infantry you maybe right but if it is a Armoured battalion battle group made up of

1 x Cavalry company
1 x Armoured sqn
1 x Boxer infantry battalion
1 x Artillery regt ( as above)
1 x Logistics support unit

in this case it is a battle group looking to push forward and engage the enemy

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

mrclark303 wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 09:33
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:27
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:13
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:37
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.
As I have said before NATO needs to come up with areas of operation like Norway , Sweden & Finland forming 1st Nordic corps & the British , Denmark & the 3 Baltic form the 2nd Baltic Corps and when that happens then we can get our heads around what we need.

For me I see the 3rd Division would be the main formation as said with 1 x Deep fires & 3 armoured brigades forming the leading group and command for the other countries brigades to form around this would mean that said Baltic corps would be made up of 1 x Deep fires Brigade , 4 x armoured Brigades , 4 x Mechanised Brigades , 3 Logistics brigades , 2 x Engineering brigades and Signals brigade

This would mean the 1st , 16AA plus the RM can be used as needed
I think our contribution to NATO will be centred on the JEF.

The idea that’s we are headed for 3 armoured brigades and a deep fires brigade is imo pie in the sky and will be doomed to even further failure from here.
I would tend to agree, without a massive injection of cash, to persuade people to remain in the Army and boost recruitment, improve living conditions and fund the levels of replacement equipment and stores needed, it's all entirely academic.

As things stand, I can see the Army heading for 65,000 regulars as the numbers steadily drop....
Well if the army is allowed to full to 65,000 then we need to maintain and increase the 3rd Division and 16AA and reduce the 1st to a re-enforced brigade

Just for me we need to let the Nordic states get on with it and build the 1st and 2nd Nordic crops. We really need to step up and have the UK 3rd division be the core of the 1st Baltic Corps long with Denmark and the 3 Baltic states and have Germany , Poland and the Dutch form the 3rd and 4th Northern corps add to this 3 x Centre corps and 2 x Southern

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mrclark303
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

Tempest414 wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 10:20
mrclark303 wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 09:33
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:27
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 19:13
SW1 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 14:37
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 12:40 Your are right but we first need to set out what we want and then equip it. As we have talked about in the past one of the LM brigades needs to be all about the high North so would need to be equipped for the role. To get to a 3rd armoured brigade would need 190 challenger 3 upgrades plus as you say the kit to sustain it

Things like fitting javelin to every APC/ C&C Boxer RWS and then replacing the Anti tank company in battalion with a over watch company with say 8 vehicles with 16 Hero 120 or Brimstone could free up 1 or 2 L118 regts to move to HIMARS meaning a Armoured brigade could rock up on the battle field with

46 Challenger 3
200+ ready fire javelin + 3 reloads
384 ready fire Hero 120 / Brimstone + reloads
27 120mm SP mortars
2 x batteries of HIMARS

Its like the the RAF I think we should move to 5 fast jet wings each with 34 jets and 3 sqns
I would like to see a return to the publishing of defence planning assumptions. The government may not stick to them but it would at least be what is expected what they are funded to do and held accountable to deliver to.

You need to decided how many theatres you want to deploy simultaneously too 1, 2 or 3. If any of them are to be sustained and at what scale. Is the deployment is for war fighting or security. If you are the framework nation or a contributor in each of those location.

And what level of force are you holding at high readiness and over what distance are they expected to deploy and in what time scales.
As I have said before NATO needs to come up with areas of operation like Norway , Sweden & Finland forming 1st Nordic corps & the British , Denmark & the 3 Baltic form the 2nd Baltic Corps and when that happens then we can get our heads around what we need.

For me I see the 3rd Division would be the main formation as said with 1 x Deep fires & 3 armoured brigades forming the leading group and command for the other countries brigades to form around this would mean that said Baltic corps would be made up of 1 x Deep fires Brigade , 4 x armoured Brigades , 4 x Mechanised Brigades , 3 Logistics brigades , 2 x Engineering brigades and Signals brigade

This would mean the 1st , 16AA plus the RM can be used as needed
I think our contribution to NATO will be centred on the JEF.

The idea that’s we are headed for 3 armoured brigades and a deep fires brigade is imo pie in the sky and will be doomed to even further failure from here.
I would tend to agree, without a massive injection of cash, to persuade people to remain in the Army and boost recruitment, improve living conditions and fund the levels of replacement equipment and stores needed, it's all entirely academic.

As things stand, I can see the Army heading for 65,000 regulars as the numbers steadily drop....
Well if the army is allowed to full to 65,000 then we need to maintain and increase the 3rd Division and 16AA and reduce the 1st to a re-enforced brigade

Just for me we need to let the Nordic states get on with it and build the 1st and 2nd Nordic crops. We really need to step up and have the UK 3rd division be the core of the 1st Baltic Corps long with Denmark and the 3 Baltic states and have Germany , Poland and the Dutch form the 3rd and 4th Northern corps add to this 3 x Centre corps and 2 x Southern
The problem is Tempest, the Army has just come off the rails since the end of the Cold War.

With BAOR, the Army had a central focus and all its capabilities were maintained.

Then the cold war ended and the leadership lost focus, cuts following cuts, followed by the pointless sandbox years and top brass procurement incompetence...

Add it all up and you end up with today's Army that's really struggling to attract youngsters and finding it even harder to keep it's personnel...

The numbers carry on in a gradual decline and it's easier to spin it and dress it up as 'soldier 2020'

" it's what we planned all along, honest, nothing to see here"

The RN got to grips with the problem, the RAF are getting there, but the Army still seem to be a rudderless ship, trying to do a bit of everything with fewer and fewer people....

I mean 2 Armoured regiments with a pool of 148 CH3, just don't bother, so far below critical mass, the MBT force is of dubious use anyway.

Wait and see the next political spin "Soldier 2030" an highly mobile, well equipped Army of 60,000 for future wars !

You just know it, unless there is a massive turn around in funding and a total rethink to retain and recruit, equip and look after the hard working men and woman of our Army, the numbers will continue to slide ever downward.

SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... boundaries

The Royal Navy will push technological boundaries and share its drug-busting and maritime security expertise in the second largest naval exercise in the world getting under way across the Middle East.

From Cyprus to Kenya, and Bahrain and the Arabian Sea, UK forces will be heavily engaged for the next three weeks on International Maritime Exercise (IMX) 23 designed to tackle threats as varied as terrorism, smuggling, sea mines and aerial drone attacks.

All the Royal Navy’s Gulf-based ships are engaged in the exercise, supported by expert dive/bomb disposal teams flown out from the UK, Royal Marines boarding and search specialists, drone operators and medics, with the RAF providing aerial support from its base at Akrotiri in Cyprus.

Support ship RFA Cardigan Bay will serve as a floating testbed for a string of technology trials which could revolutionise naval warfare – and not just in the Gulf region.

In addition to Royal Navy units, a number of the UK’s international partners will also be using the vessel as a hub for testing kit of their own.

Royal Marines and Royal Navy sailors will also be based in Kenya sharing their expertise in board and search operations. These have yielded spectacular results over the past decade, seizing millions of pounds of illegal narcotics as well as weapons caches.
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