Rest in peace RN :-(

[abc123]

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

Now we also have a language tip (within Europe) as it is not "Zone" over here, but Economic Space... just joking about us trying to track you down!

Well, now you have all the necesarry data to track me down. It's up to you.

About advice, I'm not very smart. I understand that the UK would like to have acess to the Common Market, but I find it hard to expect that other Members will accept that without continuation of some sort of paying ( like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland ) into EU budget. And that would be foolish, to have to pay, but without a vote. Then better to remain as full member.

About other options, IMHO Britain will not get a good agreement there, you are in weaker position. So, I'm not really sure what to reccomend to you. You are between rock and a hard place...

[dmereifield]

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

Now we also have a language tip (within Europe) as it is not "Zone" over here, but Economic Space... just joking about us trying to track you down!

Well, now you have all the necesarry data to track me down. It's up to you.

About advice, I'm not very smart. I understand that the UK would like to have acess to the Common Market, but I find it hard to expect that other Members will accept that without continuation of some sort of paying ( like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland ) into EU budget. And that would be foolish, to have to pay, but without a vote. Then better to remain as full member.

About other options, IMHO Britain will not get a good agreement there, you are in weaker position. So, I'm not really sure what to reccomend to you. You are between rock and a hard place...

Please don't confuse access and membership - every country (bar one or two that have sanctions) has access to the "internal market" (aka "single market"). We want good access, with as few barriers as possible. In return we offer the same access to the UK market. It's mutually beneficial. The model that we want to use is a free trade agreement. The EU has a number of these with various countries. I imagine the basis of the FTA will be something like CETA with a few modifications. Such an arrangement would be beneficial for both the UK and EU. The UK position is very reasonable. There is no logical reason not to come to some kind of arrangement, but if the EU does not wish to come to a suitable mutually beneficial arrangement, we will leave anyway.

Ps I'd hazard a guess that it's Portugal

[abc123]

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

Now we also have a language tip (within Europe) as it is not "Zone" over here, but Economic Space... just joking about us trying to track you down!

Well, now you have all the necesarry data to track me down. It's up to you.

About advice, I'm not very smart. I understand that the UK would like to have acess to the Common Market, but I find it hard to expect that other Members will accept that without continuation of some sort of paying ( like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland ) into EU budget. And that would be foolish, to have to pay, but without a vote. Then better to remain as full member.

About other options, IMHO Britain will not get a good agreement there, you are in weaker position. So, I'm not really sure what to reccomend to you. You are between rock and a hard place...

Please don't confuse access and membership - every country (bar one or two that have sanctions) has access to the "internal market" (aka "single market"). We want good access, with as few barriers as possible. In return we offer the same access to the UK market. It's mutually beneficial. The model that we want to use is a free trade agreement. The EU has a number of these with various countries. I imagine the basis of the FTA will be something like CETA with a few modifications. Such an arrangement would be beneficial for both the UK and EU. The UK position is very reasonable. There is no logical reason not to come to some kind of arrangement, but if the EU does not wish to come to a suitable mutually beneficial arrangement, we will leave anyway.

Ps I'd hazard a guess that it's Portugal

Well, we'll be much smarter in about 2-3 years... If you manage to get something like Canada, I think that would be the best possible solution for you.

Nope, it isn't Portugal. But Portugal is definitly one of my favourite countries. I have to say that armed forces of my country have during last couple decades passed trough disarmament and downscaling that can only be compared with the UK, so don't worry, I'm saying the same things about my country as well.

[marktigger]

what will finish the royal navy off is recruitment and retention. Having loads of ships is one thing but they are next to useless without crews.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I imagine the basis of the FTA will be something like CETA with a few modifications. Such an arrangement would be beneficial for both the UK and EU.

What might those modifications be?

Otherwise, we can declare in March and sign in April (hols in between!).

[dmereifield]

I imagine the basis of the FTA will be something like CETA with a few modifications. Such an arrangement would be beneficial for both the UK and EU.

What might those modifications be?

Otherwise, we can declare in March and sign in April (hols in between!).

They will obviously reflect the differences between the economies and industries of the UK and Canada, with financial services being the most obvious one that will need to be included, to whatever extent possibly

[LordJim]

Please drop any reference to the BREXIT and such like. It come on here to avoid all that cr@@!

[dmereifield]

Please drop any reference to the BREXIT and such like. It come on here to avoid all that cr@@!

Quite right, my apologies

[ArmChairCivvy]

There is a thread on it... as to how it relates to strategies (diverging?; good or bad), defence & security (as in sDSr) and finally... wait for it!
- budgets

But it is not this one.

[marktigger]

Please drop any reference to the BREXIT and such like. It come on here to avoid all that cr@@!

Sorry Lordjim Brexit does actually alter out strategic outlook our focus on trading next door to going back into the world to trade changes an awful lot more. we will need a bigger navy especially if we take back our EEZ and kick johnny foreigner out of it. And the spannish etc aren't going to be happy about loosing access to our fishing grounds At the very least. Navy may spend first few years of independence in a 21stC "cod war".

[LordJim]

All references by politicians to a bigger RN are purely a spin coated pipe dream. We will probably find out by 2025 that the whole T-31 project was a scam to cover the reduction in the T-26 orders and the escort fleet as a whole. The Budget is going to shrink, in fact it already is and because the RN has decided on these T-26 "Cruisers" that are not what it should be really purchasing, the fleet is at the most going to total 14 vessels, though this dropping to 12 could easily be rationalised. Only is we build civilian spec OPVs, say River Batch 3 and so on is the fleet actually going to increase. Neither the Treasury nor any of the Political Parties has the will to actually increase defence spending when far more politically important areas need more funds.

[Spinflight]

Yes availability is an issue at present, but building more platforms is a very inefficient way to fix that problem, and skirts around the root cause of the issue. As we know modern platforms are highly expensive, and we should be squeezing higher availability out of them before considering building more, its what happens in commercial industry.

Trying to get higher availability with less ships, as we have pushed to extreme levels, merely results in what we have seen. Low morale and retention which has resulted in two of our tubs being harbour queens.

Spending 9 months of the year aboard isn't a good idea when you are trying to retain crews with families.

Sorry Lordjim Brexit does actually alter out strategic outlook our focus on trading next door to going back into the world to trade changes an awful lot more. we will need a bigger navy especially if we take back our EEZ and kick johnny foreigner out of it. And the spannish etc aren't going to be happy about loosing access to our fishing grounds At the very least. Navy may spend first few years of independence in a 21stC "cod war".

The Spanish fishing fleet is subsidised to the tune of a billion a year by the EU, despite having little productive fishing in their own waters. According to the EU our waters are their waters. Let's hope the Government ensures that permits aren't merely given to them and that our waters are properly policed for the first time in decades.

If that means a cod war, so be it.

[shark bait]

Trying to get higher availability with less ships, as we have pushed to extreme levels, merely results in what we have seen. Low morale and retention which has resulted in two of our tubs being harbour queens.

Yes the current approach needs modifying, the current model is not sustainable which is why we have an RN on the edge.

Availability is below where it should be, and the root causes of that need fixing before increasing the fleet size makes sense. Can't build on unstable foundation's.

[FuNsTeR]

Eggs in European basket" were placed there out of necessity, not out of dumb decisions. Joining the EU/EEZ was actually one of rare smart decisions of UK post-War Governments....

And I don't think that has a lot with reduction in strength of the RN. Much more important, IMHO, was loss of "Will to power" after the WW2 and decolonisation.

But anyway, smart or dumb, if Scotland leaves the UK because of Brexit, how smart it is then?

Joining the EEC maybe not putting Maastrict, Lisbon and other treaties to the british public maybe not so smart. Maybe a major NET CONTRIBUTOR saying no might have been listened to and the EU would not now be so far down the road to oblivion.

BTW Soctland leaving is a HUGE IF. If you listen to the Scottish Nazi part its a done thing the referendum is a walk in the park......If it's so assured of victory why doesn't it go for INDYREF 2......Because it knows it WILL Loose.

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

About Scotland, well, the last time it was IIRC 55% against leaving UK. Are you sure that the next time ( and they are asking for a referendum ) will not be the opposite?

last poll i saw was 49% for independence, if they leave good riddance bring back-our ship building to England to where it belongs, we will probably have more to spend on defence without having to subsidise the scots, I'm sick to death hearing them whinge how much they hate England and that they want freedom, as i've said before give us the vote and we'll vote them out the UK

[abc123]

Eggs in European basket" were placed there out of necessity, not out of dumb decisions. Joining the EU/EEZ was actually one of rare smart decisions of UK post-War Governments....

And I don't think that has a lot with reduction in strength of the RN. Much more important, IMHO, was loss of "Will to power" after the WW2 and decolonisation.

But anyway, smart or dumb, if Scotland leaves the UK because of Brexit, how smart it is then?

Joining the EEC maybe not putting Maastrict, Lisbon and other treaties to the british public maybe not so smart. Maybe a major NET CONTRIBUTOR saying no might have been listened to and the EU would not now be so far down the road to oblivion.

BTW Soctland leaving is a HUGE IF. If you listen to the Scottish Nazi part its a done thing the referendum is a walk in the park......If it's so assured of victory why doesn't it go for INDYREF 2......Because it knows it WILL Loose.

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

About Scotland, well, the last time it was IIRC 55% against leaving UK. Are you sure that the next time ( and they are asking for a referendum ) will not be the opposite?

last poll i saw was 49% for independence, if they leave good riddance bring back-our ship building to England to where it belongs, we will probably have more to spend on defence without having to subsidise the scots, I'm sick to death hearing them whinge how much they hate England and that they want freedom, as i've said before give us the vote and we'll vote them out the UK

IMHO, the British Government should make a snap referendum in Scotland about their independence before they start building Type 26 ( and other defence projects in Scotland ) and say loud and clear that it depends on the outcome of the referendum. So, if you want to stay in the UK ( and keep all the jobs from the RN and others ) great. If not, too bad. Good riddance.

[dmereifield]

Eggs in European basket" were placed there out of necessity, not out of dumb decisions. Joining the EU/EEZ was actually one of rare smart decisions of UK post-War Governments....

And I don't think that has a lot with reduction in strength of the RN. Much more important, IMHO, was loss of "Will to power" after the WW2 and decolonisation.

But anyway, smart or dumb, if Scotland leaves the UK because of Brexit, how smart it is then?

Joining the EEC maybe not putting Maastrict, Lisbon and other treaties to the british public maybe not so smart. Maybe a major NET CONTRIBUTOR saying no might have been listened to and the EU would not now be so far down the road to oblivion.

BTW Soctland leaving is a HUGE IF. If you listen to the Scottish Nazi part its a done thing the referendum is a walk in the park......If it's so assured of victory why doesn't it go for INDYREF 2......Because it knows it WILL Loose.

I agree that the EEZ was much better idea than EU and iMHO they never should have gone for more than that. But it's spilled milk.

About Scotland, well, the last time it was IIRC 55% against leaving UK. Are you sure that the next time ( and they are asking for a referendum ) will not be the opposite?

last poll i saw was 49% for independence, if they leave good riddance bring back-our ship building to England to where it belongs, we will probably have more to spend on defence without having to subsidise the scots, I'm sick to death hearing them whinge how much they hate England and that they want freedom, as i've said before give us the vote and we'll vote them out the UK

I think that poll was discredited by Prof John Curtice, so let's wait and see what the next few polls show....

[marktigger]

great the jocks see it as a threat and vote to lead that means we move type 26 to where?

Will Type 23 be able to serve another 10-15 years beyond what is already planned!

[marktigger]

I think that poll was discredited by Prof John Curtice, so let's wait and see what the next few polls show....

we'll know when the polls are right as Salmon & Sturgeon will be screaming for a referendum

[abc123]

great the jocks see it as a threat and vote to lead that means we move type 26 to where?

Will Type 23 be able to serve another 10-15 years beyond what is already planned!

Can't they build them anywhere in England?

[abc123]

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-puz ... apability/

Something to read...

[marktigger]

great the jocks see it as a threat and vote to lead that means we move type 26 to where?

Will Type 23 be able to serve another 10-15 years beyond what is already planned!

Can't they build them anywhere in England?

given size cammell laird

cepth they want to rebuild the tyne yards or Vospers in Portsmouth or even H&W in belfast (be a shame to have to knock the titanic museum down)

[abc123]

great the jocks see it as a threat and vote to lead that means we move type 26 to where?

Will Type 23 be able to serve another 10-15 years beyond what is already planned!

Can't they build them anywhere in England?

given size cammell laird

cepth they want to rebuild the tyne yards or Vospers in Portsmouth or even H&W in belfast (be a shame to have to knock the titanic museum down)

GDMT, again out of England? Somebody really hate's to learn from history...

[marktigger]

and why does it all have to revolve round England?

the Royal Navy is a United Kingdom force it recruits from across the 4 nations!

English nationalism is just as big a threat to the union as Scottish Nationalism, Welsh nationalism or Irish republicanism.

[abc123]

and why does it all have to revolve round England?

the Royal Navy is a United Kingdom force it recruits from across the 4 nations!

English nationalism is just as big a threat to the union as Scottish Nationalism, Welsh nationalism or Irish republicanism.

Hardly.

[FuNsTeR]

and why does it all have to revolve round England?

the Royal Navy is a United Kingdom force it recruits from across the 4 nations!

English nationalism is just as big a threat to the union as Scottish Nationalism, Welsh nationalism or Irish republicanism.

well to me the UK seems to revolve around scotland we are not allowed to upset them in case heaven forbid they call for another referendum, The UK is never going to be stable with the constant threat of the jocks wanting to leave