Rest in peace RN :-(

[cky7]

Staying out of sight at sea? Better get some of these then:
http://noticiarionaval.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... -sous.html

Worth further investigation must admit I do like a lot of the ideas that DCNS come mout with. Wish we were doing more of this ourselves. I guess the problem at the moment is finding anyone to back your ideas, something even DCNS have trouble with. Closest we have are BMT i guess who I also like.

[abc123]

So, if enemy has assault rifle and you have a gun, because assault rifle outranges your gun, you will drop the gun and take the knife or rock instead? That would be better?

Lol. I guess I'd try and stay out sight till they were in range of my gun then make sure I didn't miss, which sort of proves your point! I do agree harpoon is better than nothing, my point was more having to rely on it is bad enough when we should have had something at least as capable as our potential enemies in place. That just makes it more depressing though!

Staying out of sight at sea? Better get some of these then:
http://noticiarionaval.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... -sous.html

I would rather trying to stay of the sight at sea ( against enemy with say Brahmos ) with Harpoons than with just 4,5-inch guns... The first option isn't very smart and has a small chances for sucess, the second is outright suicidal.

[abc123]

Well, his lordship says that evereything is a OK and you can sleep peacefully in your beds tonight:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... rd-message

Laser weapons are coming, so Harpoons are not necesarry...

With admirals like this- who needs politicians and Whitehall mandarins...

Q.E.D.

[abc123]

I'm very sorry if my sincere concern for well-being of the RN is interpreted as trolling. Nothing can be further off my mind and my intentions.

But, if calling me a troll helps you, by all means. BUT THAT WILL NOT RETURN THE HARPOONS OR REPLACE THEM WITH NEW MISSILES.

But, I allready said evereything I wanted to say on this subject, so the Mods can close this thread- I don't mind.

They can even ban me if they want- I'm slowly becoming tired of being labeled a troll just because I say that some things are not good for the RN and the UK. Frankly, this whole UK Defence/RN thing has become so embarrasing and tragicomical, I really lost the will to follow it any more.

But what sadden's me the most, is that I, as not-UK-national ( not even living in the UK ), seem to care more about the RN than many here.

[wirralpete]

Keep diggin troll not the first time methinks?

[abc123]

Keep diggin troll not the first time methinks?

I finished my conversation with you. I don't know if this forum has "ignore option" but consider as ignored from now on.

[The Armchair Soldier]

Deleted the verbally abusive posts and the replies.

Just a reminder that being disrespectful, rude and verbally abusive is against our forum rules, stated here: http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4

Please refrain from it in future.

This thread will remain open and nobody will be banned, but a warning has been issued to wirralpete for his verbal abuse.

@abc123 - There is indeed an ignore option. Please read about it here: http://ukdefenceforum.net/faq.php#f6r0 (Friends & Foes)

If anyone wishes to discuss this, please send me a Private Message.

Back on-topic!

[wirralpete]

NO PROBLEM

[donald_of_tokyo]

Canadian Navy is getting Block II Harpoon.

http://navaltoday.com/2016/04/11/canadi ... e-missile/

Just for reference.

[Digger22]

Would we not be better served having equipment that, while may not be the best in the world, we would at least be able to have in decent numbers. Talk of Astute, maybe we should have just built modernised Trafalgar's. We could have had more, that would have been easier to build, less risky in terms of New Tech, and although not able to Compete with some New types, would have been available?
After all a swarm of bees always beats the bear.
Likewise, despite being the 'Most Advanced' it can still breakdown, need refit and can only be in one place at a time.
Also we seem bent on designing 'New' stuff to save money? If there was ever a contradiction in the same sentence this is it!
Take T26/T31. Just build some more stripped out T26. You can always quickly bring them up to spec in a crisis, just by robing your spare parts bin. T31 will end up costing more than just continuing with T26, especially if only 5 are built and no one else buys them!
Of course we cannot build kamikaze machines, but we can build enough decent ships to be viable, available, reliable and compete with a potential enemy.

[abc123]

Canadian Navy is getting Block II Harpoon.

http://navaltoday.com/2016/04/11/canadi ... e-missile/

Just for reference.

Meh, that's outdated junk for the RN, who needs that? RN will get supersonic missiles just about 2030-2040. A small missile gap can't harm anybody, right?

[dmereifield]

Would we not be better served having equipment that, while may not be the best in the world, we would at least be able to have in decent numbers. Talk of Astute, maybe we should have just built modernised Trafalgar's. We could have had more, that would have been easier to build, less risky in terms of New Tech, and although not able to Compete with some New types, would have been available?
After all a swarm of bees always beats the bear.
Likewise, despite being the 'Most Advanced' it can still breakdown, need refit and can only be in one place at a time.
Also we seem bent on designing 'New' stuff to save money? If there was ever a contradiction in the same sentence this is it!
Take T26/T31. Just build some more stripped out T26. You can always quickly bring them up to spec in a crisis, just by robing your spare parts bin. T31 will end up costing more than just continuing with T26, especially if only 5 are built and no one else buys them!
Of course we cannot build kamikaze machines, but we can build enough decent ships to be viable, available, reliable and compete with a potential enemy.

Following that train of thought, do you advocate the low risk, low cost, quick option for the T31 - Cutlass? Or would even the most high spec Cutlass (whatever a high spec Cutlass could be?) be a Kamikaze machine? If not, and given that your T26 light is not an option...what would be the best T31 platform/spec to increase hull numbers?

[abc123]

Let's take this last situation in Yemen as example. So the Houthies are launching missiles on foreign ships. So, let's imagine that current RN surface fleet consisting of Type 23 and Type 45 is there. And that the missiles launched are on them, not on USS Mason.

OK, Type 45 would probably shot down the missile with Asters. Not so sure about Type 23 with Sea Wolf. But never mind.

And what will stop Houthies to launch again? Kryten gun? Hardly... They would move their launcher for a few kilometers and launch again at will.

So, everybody here are saying that Type 23 and Type 45 are top notch systems or in MoDs language "world class". And yet, they can't do a thing. World class ships and can't do a thing.

Now, new Type 26 should have Tomahawks that could do something about it, but we won't see them in action for at least 10 years ( more than 1 or 2 ships ).

If Type 45 had Mk41 and a pair of Tomahawks, they probably could do something.

So, is Cutlass ( or even Avenger ) really such Kamikaze machine? Maybe if you use it for what is not planned in the first place- not a ship to try to force your way in Taiwan Strait or Hormuz during war. But if you use it to fight Pirates of Somalia or patrol around Falklands ( at least until Argentinian military is in such sorry condition ) or in West Indies ( catching drug smugglers or assisting after hurricanes ) or steming the tide of immigrants in Messina Strait- it should be more than enough.

So, IMHO, for real trouble CVBG with high end ships. For allmost all the rest, Cutlass will be just fine.

[dmereifield]

Let's take this last situation in Yemen as example. So the Houthies are launching missiles on foreign ships. So, let's imagine that current RN surface fleet consisting of Type 23 and Type 45 is there. And that the missiles launched are on them, not on USS Mason.

OK, Type 45 would probably shot down the missile with Asters. Not so sure about Type 23 with Sea Wolf. But never mind.

And what will stop Houthies to launch again? Kryten gun? Hardly... They would move their launcher for a few kilometers and launch again at will.

So, everybody here are saying that Type 23 and Type 45 are top notch systems or in MoDs language "world class". And yet, they can't do a thing. World class ships and can't do a thing.

Now, new Type 26 should have Tomahawks that could do something about it, but we won't see them in action for at least 10 years ( more than 1 or 2 ships ).

If Type 45 had Mk41 and a pair of Tomahawks, they probably could do something.

So, is Cutlass ( or even Avenger ) really such Kamikaze machine? Maybe if you use it for what is not planned in the first place- not a ship to try to force your way in Taiwan Strait or Hormuz during war. But if you use it to fight Pirates of Somalia or patrol around Falklands ( at least until Argentinian military is in such sorry condition ) or in West Indies ( catching drug smugglers or assisting after hurricanes ) or steming the tide of immigrants in Messina Strait- it should be more than enough.

So, IMHO, for real trouble CVBG with high end ships. For allmost all the rest, Cutlass will be just fine.

Thanks for the response.

In that case then:
1) is 14 high end escorts sufficient for the RN's commitments, and possible future war scenarios?

2) if the T31 is only going to be capable of undertaking the tasks you describe, why waste the money on Cutlass/Avenger, why not just buy more River B2?

I guess the 2nd is rhetorical since we know HMG is committed to the T31 now...but it doesn't seem to make much sense spending a lot of money on a class of ships that won't seem to be able to do much more than the Rivers

[donald_of_tokyo]

Canadian Navy is getting Block II Harpoon.
Just for reference.

Meh, that's outdated junk for the RN, who needs that? RN will get supersonic missiles just about 2030-2040. A small missile gap can't harm anybody, right?

My answer is simple.
- I do not think Harpoon B2/2+ is "outdated junk". (I agree block-1 is "junk"). I also think updating the system to block2/2+ standard and buying, say, 100-150 missiles will be not expensive.
- Supersonic ASM will be (naturally) 2-4 times expensive than Harpoon block2+, or NSM. In "2030-40" RN will find big difficulty how to manage that money.
- I think "gapping for 10-20 years" is just "abandoning" the capability.
- And I believe, RN shall be equipped with "full spectrum of capabilities", to be able to handle wide range of warfare theaters, as one of the world's best navy.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Sorry for getting in (in view of T31 issue).

Let's take this last situation in Yemen as example. So the Houthies are launching missiles on foreign ships. So, let's imagine that current RN surface fleet consisting of Type 23 and Type 45 is there. And that the missiles launched are on them, not on USS Mason.
OK, Type 45 would probably shot down the missile with Asters. Not so sure about Type 23 with Sea Wolf. But never mind.

I think T26 as well as T31 can be also there. Actually this is one of the theater T31 can be "best" used for.

And what will stop Houthies to launch again? Kryten gun? Hardly... They would move their launcher for a few kilometers and launch again at will.

Tomahawk will not, and was not, launched within a minute anyway. It shall rather be UAV-attackers. You need to assess the launch point. Your enemy will even launch the missile from near the hospital (and when attacked, the terrorists are all miles away).

Thanks for the response.
In that case then:
1) is 14 high end escorts sufficient for the RN's commitments, and possible future war scenarios?
2) if the T31 is only going to be capable of undertaking the tasks you describe, why waste the money on Cutlass/Avenger, why not just buy more River B2?
I guess the 2nd is rhetorical since we know HMG is committed to the T31 now...but it doesn't seem to make much sense spending a lot of money on a class of ships that won't seem to be able to do much more than the Rivers

As I said, T31 is much different from River B2. River will not survive the Yemen case. T31 will be as survivable as T45/23mod/T26. I think T31 is also useful in real war. It is not much different from T23GP. It can do inner layer defense of CVTF, or escorting the logistic fleet. T31 cannot "replace" hi-end escorts, but can "supplement" it.

We shall face the fact the HMG cannot or not willing to support 2 big big CV & many F35Bs & P-8As & SSBNs & SSNs & ..... along with 19 hi-end escorts at the same time. I agree there can be a trade-off between: "6x T45 + 10x or 11x T26" vs "6x T45 + 8x T26 + 5x T31 (even Cutlass)". But we are not comparing 5 T26 vs 5 T31. I agree it depends on what kind of committment RN will do.

But, as seen in Yemen's case, there really are cases (for me, including inner layer defense of CVTF) where T31 can do, while it is twice cheaper than a T26.

[Engaging Strategy]

1) is 14 high end escorts sufficient for the RN's commitments, and possible future war scenarios?

If you want only 14 proper FF/DD you have to ask, can the RN do what's required of them with 13? How about 10? I ask, because during peacetime things like this happen:









And during wartime things like this happen:







Where's the resilience in a 14 strong high end escort force? I would argue that there isn't any. Designing your force around the idea that accidents won't happen and wars won't result in losses is moronic. This is why T31 has to be halfway credible.

2) if the T31 is only going to be capable of undertaking the tasks you describe, why waste the money on Cutlass/Avenger, why not just buy more River B2?

Exactly, except it's escorts that the RN needs, and not more OPVs.

I guess the 2nd is rhetorical since we know HMG is committed to the T31 now...but it doesn't seem to make much sense spending a lot of money on a class of ships that won't seem to be able to do much more than the Rivers

Brass tacks: do we want to have a useful and resilient escort force, or do we want to pretend we're building warships, only to have that pretence cruelly torn away when we actually have to fight a war with them?

Those advocating 14 high end escorts and a bunch of OPVs with a gun and some CAMM are essentially suggesting that we plan on the assumption that we'll be facing the best case scenario: no ships lost or put out of action by accident or by combat for the next 30 odd years.

[marktigger]

the government and treasury are still trying to make the 1920's concept of having 10 years warning of a war work. It failed then the British army wouldn't have been ready for WW2 till 1947 if Hitler had waited for them. It's to save money. And even with todays 24hour media the warning time won't improve any.....I hesitate to say our intelligence and Diplomatic service should be warning us but their track record isn't good on that front.

[abc123]

Let's take this last situation in Yemen as example. So the Houthies are launching missiles on foreign ships. So, let's imagine that current RN surface fleet consisting of Type 23 and Type 45 is there. And that the missiles launched are on them, not on USS Mason.

OK, Type 45 would probably shot down the missile with Asters. Not so sure about Type 23 with Sea Wolf. But never mind.

And what will stop Houthies to launch again? Kryten gun? Hardly... They would move their launcher for a few kilometers and launch again at will.

So, everybody here are saying that Type 23 and Type 45 are top notch systems or in MoDs language "world class". And yet, they can't do a thing. World class ships and can't do a thing.

Now, new Type 26 should have Tomahawks that could do something about it, but we won't see them in action for at least 10 years ( more than 1 or 2 ships ).

If Type 45 had Mk41 and a pair of Tomahawks, they probably could do something.

So, is Cutlass ( or even Avenger ) really such Kamikaze machine? Maybe if you use it for what is not planned in the first place- not a ship to try to force your way in Taiwan Strait or Hormuz during war. But if you use it to fight Pirates of Somalia or patrol around Falklands ( at least until Argentinian military is in such sorry condition ) or in West Indies ( catching drug smugglers or assisting after hurricanes ) or steming the tide of immigrants in Messina Strait- it should be more than enough.

So, IMHO, for real trouble CVBG with high end ships. For allmost all the rest, Cutlass will be just fine.

Thanks for the response.

In that case then:
1) is 14 high end escorts sufficient for the RN's commitments, and possible future war scenarios?

2) if the T31 is only going to be capable of undertaking the tasks you describe, why waste the money on Cutlass/Avenger, why not just buy more River B2?

I guess the 2nd is rhetorical since we know HMG is committed to the T31 now...but it doesn't seem to make much sense spending a lot of money on a class of ships that won't seem to be able to do much more than the Rivers

Answer:

1) Hell no.

2) Good question. IMHO, there's no much sense. Maybe bit improved River ( helicopter and hangar is a must ) and some basic self-defence ( 76 mm gun, 2x30 mm, Phalanx ) and that's it. IMHO, Spanish BAM is an excellent exampleof such ship.

[abc123]

Exactly, except it's escorts that the RN needs, and not more OPVs.

I agree, but they won't get them. There's no money for them. ( there is, but the HMG doesen't want to spend them on RN ) So, either they will get more OPVs or nothing at all. ( OK, maybe 1 more Type 26 and that's it )

[abc123]

I think T26 as well as T31 can be also there.

Maybe in 2030.

[abc123]

Tomahawk will not, and was not, launched within a minute anyway. It shall rather be UAV-attackers. You need to assess the launch point.

Agreed. But the RN has no UAVs either. The lease for Scan Eagle expired.

[RetroSicotte]

Moved to General Discussion, as this is a general discursive thread.

[dmereifield]

1) is 14 high end escorts sufficient for the RN's commitments, and possible future war scenarios?

If you want only 14 proper FF/DD you have to ask, can the RN do what's required of them with 13? How about 10? I ask, because during peacetime things like this happen:









And during wartime things like this happen:







Where's the resilience in a 14 strong high end escort force? I would argue that there isn't any. Designing your force around the idea that accidents won't happen and wars won't result in losses is moronic. This is why T31 has to be halfway credible.

2) if the T31 is only going to be capable of undertaking the tasks you describe, why waste the money on Cutlass/Avenger, why not just buy more River B2?

Exactly, except it's escorts that the RN needs, and not more OPVs.

I guess the 2nd is rhetorical since we know HMG is committed to the T31 now...but it doesn't seem to make much sense spending a lot of money on a class of ships that won't seem to be able to do much more than the Rivers

Brass tacks: do we want to have a useful and resilient escort force, or do we want to pretend we're building warships, only to have that pretence cruelly torn away when we actually have to fight a war with them?

Those advocating 14 high end escorts and a bunch of OPVs with a gun and some CAMM are essentially suggesting that we plan on the assumption that we'll be facing the best case scenario: no ships lost or put out of action by accident or by combat for the next 30 odd years.

Well yes, 14 sounds ridiculously low to me, but what do I know - that's why I ask.

Could you flesh out what you mean by "half way credible"?
I suspect I know the answer, but is it not possible to add sufficient sensors, armament, damage control and stores etc to enable a Cutlass variant to be a half way credible escort? I ask since, as some others on here, I'm pretty much resigned to expecting that the cheap and cheerful MOTS option, and if so, does that definitively mean that it's a dud, or is there potentially still a chance that it could turn out to be something credible for the RN?

[Engaging Strategy]

Well yes, 14 sounds ridiculously low to me, but what do I know - that's why I ask.

It is ridiculously low. Zero chance of sustaining a carrier group, protecting CASD and doing other key tasks concurrently.

Could you flesh out what you mean by "half way credible"?

The trick will be building an austere but still capable combatant. It shouldn't be much less than Type 23GP in terms of sensors and armament. Modernise and harmonise equipment as best we can across multiple classes. Essentially if it's not on either T-26 or T-45 it shouldn't be on T-31. That goes for everything from weapons to internal fittings, sensors and propulsion equipment.

Then ruthlessly bin or scale back *everything* that isn't essential. Some things that T-26 has that shouldn't be on T-31:

-Accommodation for a large EMF.
-Chinook capable flight deck.
-Mission bay in the superstructure.
-Large strike-length VLS.
-Distributed missile silos.
-Hangar for two helicopters.
-Gas Turbine propulsion.
-Ultra-quiet hull and machinery.
-2 CIWS.
-7000nmi range

To point to the two concepts that most closely mirror this I'd be looking at BMT's Venator 110 or Stellar Systems' Project Spartan. Both are relatively austere and will be significantly cheaper than Type 26 *if* the design process isn't subject to meddling from the RN or MoD. Both represent useful, credible frigates capable of self-defence and operating in high-threat areas alongside the top of the line RN units but neither are anywhere near as "gold plated" as Type 26.

I suspect I know the answer, but is it not possible to add sufficient sensors, armament, damage control and stores etc to enable a Cutlass variant to be a half way credible escort?

No. To make the BAE Cutlass into a credible escort would require a ground-up redesign. At that point you might as well just design from scratch rather than trying to cram what you want into an existing hull that was designed to accommodate different requirements.

I ask since, as some others on here, I'm pretty much resigned to expecting that the cheap and cheerful MOTS option, and if so, does that definitively mean that it's a dud, or is there potentially still a chance that it could turn out to be something credible for the RN?

If it's Cutlass/Avenger then it's likely not a useful exercise. They won't be credible and they'll sap limited resources away from building real escorts. That said, real escorts do not have to be anywhere near as "gold plated" as T-26 has become.