Albion Class Amphibious Assault Ships (LPD) (RN)

[Jensy]

Royal Navy workhorse HMS Albion has returned home to Plymouth for possibly the final time.

https://www.forces.net/services/navy/ro ... final-time

Although the article doesn't go into any detail, curious where this speculation has come from.

[SKB]

She wasn't flying a paying off pennant.

[wargame_insomniac]

Are Albion and Bulwark swapping roles, with Albion's turn to go into extended low readiness?
I saw that on Twitter so the usual "caveat emptor" disclaimers apply.

[wargame_insomniac]

A no-update update from MOD:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-tig ... o-service/

[Repulse]

A no-update update from MOD

Silence says it all, neither are coming back.

Not a great decision IMO, but if the is announcement of what’s coming next, then it’s better than the lack of direction currently.

One thing is for sure if the Navy is down to three amphibious ships plus Argus, then there is zero chance of getting all six MRSSs.

[serge750]

if they did sell 1 LPD ( which may help short budget ) hopefully not both Albion & Bulwark !!! then order 6 MRSS they could "spin" it as an increase in numbers....

[Repulse]

if they did sell 1 LPD ( which may help short budget ) hopefully not both Albion & Bulwark !!! then order 6 MRSS they could "spin" it as an increase in numbers....

Can’t see politically they could spin it - both will be held in reserve, slowly decaying and then quietly scrapped in about 3-4 years time.

[Jensy]

if they did sell 1 LPD ( which may help short budget ) hopefully not both Albion & Bulwark !!! then order 6 MRSS they could "spin" it as an increase in numbers....

Can’t see politically they could spin it - both will be held in reserve, slowly decaying and then quietly scrapped in about 3-4 years time.

I could see at least one sold to Brazil before the Turks start slicing them apart.

As I said on the future amphib thread, if the Navy don't demonstrate the value and future relevance of heavy ship-to-shore then it will simply be deleted before any comparable replacement is considered.

[Poiuytrewq]

if they did sell 1 LPD ( which may help short budget ) hopefully not both Albion & Bulwark !!! then order 6 MRSS they could "spin" it as an increase in numbers....

Can’t see politically they could spin it - both will be held in reserve, slowly decaying and then quietly scrapped in about 3-4 years time.

I could see at least one sold to Brazil before the Turks start slicing them apart.

As I said on the future amphib thread, if the Navy don't demonstrate the value and future relevance of heavy ship-to-shore then it will simply be deleted before any comparable replacement is considered.

IMO this is a great example of the dubious wisdom of trying to get 30-35yrs from a hull. It’s virtually guaranteed to become obsolescent long before the OSD.

Replace them every 25yrs and many of these problems will resolve themselves.

[Digger22]

Sad to see that lessons learned from the Falklands are being forgotten.

[RichardIC]

As I said on the future amphib thread, if the Navy don't demonstrate the value and future relevance of heavy ship-to-shore then it will simply be deleted before any comparable replacement is considered.

I'm not sure there is any relevance. The RM is now a light raiding force.

[jedibeeftrix]

As I said on the future amphib thread, if the Navy don't demonstrate the value and future relevance of heavy ship-to-shore then it will simply be deleted before any comparable replacement is considered.

I'm not sure there is any relevance. The RM is now a light raiding force.

you are in a position to be better informed than many of us, do you have any insight into which elements of 3Cdo still exist - and by how much these supporting functions have been reduced?

i know the headcount has dropped from 7381 (2011) to 5816 (2022), but that still seems to be an awful of brigade 'enablers' for three light infantry battalions that supposedly potter round on 48hr raiding excursions at a max scale of a few hundred chaps...

[Tempest414]

As I have said a few time I think the RM are trying to work on the bases of having 8 LSU that can work on there own or all together under the brigade with its enablers

For me we need to retain the ability to put a RM Battalion battle group OTH

[Poiuytrewq]

As I have said a few time I think the RM are trying to work on the bases of having 8 LSU that can work on there own or all together under the brigade with its enablers

For me we need to retain the ability to put a RM Battalion battle group OTH

This change of doctrine to much lighter forces started with the USMC. Clearly RM and the Korps Mariniers are signed up.

Are we still sure the USMC have made the correct reorganisation or is subtle u-turn still possible? Even with the change in direction the USMC still have massive scale and virtually limitless strength in depth with the rest of the US military backing them up. The UK doesn’t have that luxury.

Splitting into LSU’s is a good solution but coherently joining the LSU’s back together incrementally all the way back up to a full Brigade must still be a priority.

Considering how much 3 Cdo has been relied upon over the years it difficult to think of a higher priority than maintaining this World class capability.

[SW1]

As I have said a few time I think the RM are trying to work on the bases of having 8 LSU that can work on there own or all together under the brigade with its enablers

For me we need to retain the ability to put a RM Battalion battle group OTH

This change of doctrine to much lighter forces started with the USMC. Clearly RM and the Korps Mariniers are signed up.

Are we still sure the USMC have made the correct reorganisation or is subtle u-turn still possible? Even with the change in direction the USMC still have massive scale and virtually limitless strength in depth with the rest of the US military backing them up. The UK doesn’t have that luxury.

Splitting into LSU’s is a good solution but coherently joining the LSU’s back together incrementally all the way back up to a full Brigade must still be a priority.

Considering how much 3 Cdo has been relied upon over the years it difficult to think of a higher priority than maintaining this World class capability.

You could put a Rudd hanger on an Albion have 4 wildcat and 8 cb90s with rs6 weapons turret and a couple of hover craft and conduct littorial security and manoeuvre/raids. If they had the money and crew to do it but they don’t and can’t while insisting on having 2 carriers operating at the same time it’s the fundamental issues you cannot do both.

[shark bait]

Is four helicopters but only one landing spot worth it?

[SW1]

Is four helicopters but only one landing spot worth it?

On an Albion it’s a 2 spot flight deck for chinook so even with a Rudd you would have 2 spots for wildcat.

[Scimitar54]

Spots for 2 x Wildcats …. Not much use for the number of Bootnecks likely to need Vertical Lift !

[Poiuytrewq]

You could put a Rudd hanger on an Albion have 4 wildcat and 8 cb90s with rs6 weapons turret and a couple of hover craft and conduct littorial security and manoeuvre/raids.

Now the Albions are gone for a year (at least) it will take a lot to bring them back IMO. If small scale raiding is all that is required now why bother bringing them back? What do they add?

IMO RN need to get organised now for the battle to replace the Amphibs. The red meat for HMT is the mothballing of the two Albions. Two very expensive hulls to maintain.

Six identical hulls just won’t happen. It will get dropped down to 3 or 4 ‘more capable’ vessels. At that point any remaining Amphibious strength in depth will have gone. Not acceptable.

Why not be proactive?

- Volunteer the mothballing of both Albions with the funding reallocated to complete three £50m LSS conversions of the Bays. Transfer the Bays to RN. If extra mass is required add a Point to each LRG if required. Each Point could embark 4-5 large LCAC. Test them.

- Bay conversion to include 1000sqm hanger and 4x15m davits. Twin Chinook flight deck maintained. A hanger of that size can embark 6x Merlin or 12x Wildcat or a multitude of other UK and Allied Helos and drones.

- Use one LSS Bay to form centre of LRG(N), the second LRG(S) and the third in reserve at Gibraltar.

- Reactivate both Waves and make modest changes to support the LRGs. Attach one wave to each LRG.

- Designate Argus as principal HADR vessel to primarily concentrate on East/West Africa and the Caribbean. Crew predominantly with reservists.

The outcome would be a credible Amphibious force for the next 15 years. The FCF theory could be thoroughly tested and if the worst happened the Albions could be reactivated albeit at a high cost.

No new vessels and no new money needed. RFA headcount crisis largely solved and RN with a much clearer idea of future requirements. What’s not to like?

[SW1]

You could put a Rudd hanger on an Albion have 4 wildcat and 8 cb90s with rs6 weapons turret and a couple of hover craft and conduct littorial security and manoeuvre/raids.

Now the Albions are gone for a year (at least) it will take a lot to bring them back IMO. If small scale raiding is all that is required now why bother bringing them back? What do they add?

IMO RN need to get organised now for the battle to replace the Amphibs. The red meat for HMT is the mothballing of the two Albions. Two very expensive hulls to maintain.

Six identical hulls just won’t happen. It will get dropped down to 3 or 4 ‘more capable’ vessels. At that point any remaining Amphibious strength in depth will have gone. Not acceptable.

Why not be proactive?

- Volunteer the mothballing of both Albions with the funding reallocated to complete three £50m LSS conversions of the Bays. Transfer the Bays to RN. If extra mass is required add a Point to each LRG if required. Each Point could embark 4-5 large LCAC. Test them.

- Bay conversion to include 1000sqm hanger and 4x15m davits. Twin Chinook flight deck maintained. A hanger of that size can embark 6x Merlin or 12x Wildcat or a multitude of other UK and Allied Helos and drones.

- Use one LSS Bay to form centre of LRG(N), the second LRG(S) and the third in reserve at Gibraltar.

- Reactivate both Waves and make modest changes to support the LRGs. Attach one wave to each LRG.

- Designate Argus as principal HADR vessel to primarily concentrate on East/West Africa and the Caribbean. Crew predominantly with reservists.

The outcome would be a credible Amphibious force for the next 15 years. The FCF theory could be thoroughly tested and if the worst happened the Albions could be reactivated albeit at a high cost.

No new vessels and no new money needed. RFA headcount crisis largely solved and RN with a much clearer idea of future requirements. What’s not to like?

The amphibious fleet was done for when at the 2015 sdsr the RN decided that it was operating two carriers simultaneously and again in 2021sdsr. The dirty little secret was hinted at by sea lords and others at the time without anyone coming out and saying it in those terms as it was too political.

What has occurred since has been oh shit what do we do now.

Bringing the bays into the RN would require several hundred additional crew and maybe additional modifications you can see the difference in how the RAN man there’s.

The RN does not and should not dedicate ships to HADR it’s a secondary task.

If you wanted a alternative going fwd you could
have the Albions operating in a littoral role along the lines I mentioned, would be cheaper overall and more efficient than reactivating and crewing the additional ships you mention. You wouldn’t need the bays or the Argus I don’t see the waves coming back and would free the several hundred additional RFA crew that would be needed in the RFA for the 3 new solid stores ships.

You could pair the Albion with a frigate when it’s operating away from the main task group. I think the littoral groups are a step to far in there present guise and stretch things too much. I don’t believe the bay class have a twin chinook operating capable flight deck only the Albion class

However it would need to be at the expense of operating the two carriers simultaneously. If maybe bulwark will come back when Queen Elizabeth goes into refit next year.

[Poiuytrewq]

The amphibious fleet was done for when at the 2015 sdsr the RN decided that it was operating two carriers simultaneously and again in 2021sdsr. The dirty little secret was hinted at by sea lords and others at the time without anyone coming out and saying it in those terms as it was too political.

Perhaps but I think they rely on the embarrassment of a cut of that scale to safeguard it. I don’t think they ever believed it would be allowed to be deleted.

What has occurred since has been oh shit what do we do now.

Hence the placeholder that is the MRSS.

Bringing the bays into the RN would require several hundred additional crew and maybe additional modifications you can see the difference in how the RAN man there’s.

Absolutely but the Albions crew would largely cover that. We won’t have the first MRSS before 2034. It’s a decade away, minimum.

The plan for this decade is a mess both financially and strategically.

The RN does not and should not dedicate ships to HADR it’s a secondary task.

Totally disagree.

What Labour government would cut a HADR ship that concentrates on advancing healthcare in Africa and disaster relief in the Caribbean.

RN need to get smart.

If you wanted a alternative going fwd you could
have the Albions operating in a littoral role along the lines I mentioned, would be cheaper overall and more efficient than reactivating and crewing the additional ships you mention. You wouldn’t need the bays or the Argus

The Albions just don’t fit with the new doctrine. If the doctrine is reverting, great. Unfortunately there is no sign of a change of plan. Hence the prioritisation of the CVFs over the LPD’s.

Therefore what is a credible plan? Will the LPD only be reactivated when a CVF goes onto deep refit? That isn’t a credible plan, it would be a fudge and an admission that the current headcount isn’t sufficient.

Removing the cost of the Albions and redistributing the allocated resources will be much cheaper and more effective. The Bays are already operational. How could it possibly cost more?

I don’t see the waves coming back and would free the several hundred additional RFA crew that would be needed in the RFA for the 3 new solid stores ships.

The first FSS won’t need a full crew before 2028/2029. That’s plenty of time to sort the headcount. If it can’t be sorted in 5 years it can’t be sorted.

The simple fact is that to operate EoS extra Auxiliaries will be required, the distances are vast. The UK has the Auxiliaries, time to use them to their full potential.

You could pair the Albion with a frigate when it’s operating away from the main task group. I think the littoral groups are a step to far in there present guise and stretch things too much. I don’t believe the bay class have a twin chinook operating capable flight deck only the Albion class

The Bays and Albions have virtually identical space available for flight decks.

F36FADC3-E74E-426D-BA85-8D7EA635A2E0.jpeg

However it would need to be at the expense of operating the two carriers simultaneously. If maybe bulwark will come back when Queen Elizabeth goes into refit next year.

We agree here. Lots of talk about CSG23 but it’s a very modest CSG. Lack of escorts, lack of Auxiliaries, lack of F35 and Allies slotted in to fill the cracks. After 5 years of carrier strike it’s disappointing.

The second CVF acting as a LPH isn’t a credible solution. A one out/one in model with a single, permanently available, highly credible and fully resourced CSG is a much more effective way to proceed IMO.

[donald_of_tokyo]

The second CVF acting as a LPH isn’t a credible solution.

There is the issue, everyone is focused on carrier strike rather than CEPP, there’s absolutely no reason to get the CVF can’t be the number one LPH on the planet, but people are stuck in old way of thinking.

[Poiuytrewq]

There is the issue, everyone is focused on carrier strike rather than CEPP, there’s absolutely no reason to get the CVF can’t be the number one LPH on the planet, but people are stuck in old way of thinking.

I didn’t suggest the CVF couldn’t act as a LPH, simply that most countries don’t spend over £3bn on a LPH.

I was also suggesting that most countries don’t build 65,000t LPH’s that are big enough to embark the vast majority of the nations active naval helicopters and then operate it within AShM range of a hostile coastline.

Interested to get your perspective on CEPP.

[shark bait]

if they did sell 1 LPD

Who would be buying? Who would want assault ships with no helicopters?

[Fr0sty125]

The RN doesn’t have the crew or funding to operate them, it makes sense to mothball them. Focus LRGs around Bays and Argus. I believe Lyme Bay had Ocean’s command centre I’m not sure what the other bays and Argus now have.