Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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mrclark303
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 06 Sep 2022, 09:55 So the very big shout out and the morels of the storys above is never ever have anything to do with Germany for military aircraft , a total dead loss if we want to be truthful about it ,they have zero to offer except Hassel and negative outcomes on progress
Unfortunately, that is the moral of the story, you might want to throw the French into that mix too...

On paper, we should 'theoretically' be producing world class defence aviation with our European partners, however political manoeuvring totally 'screws the pooch' every single time.....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 06 Sep 2022, 00:03
topman wrote: 05 Sep 2022, 21:38 I wouldn't say typhoon is much bigger than tornado. They are both a similar size.
Evening Topman, yep of comparable like by like size.

But they are radically different aircraft, Tornado was originally envisioned as a multi role aircraft, but German insistence on an aircraft as small as possible effectively constrained the design to a low level, comparatively short range, low level specialist.

The engine ended up being a specialised and rather underpowered low level optimised turbofan and the radar virtually AG dedicated, with only simple AA modes available. You would be in deep sh*t indeed if you found yourself actually forced to use it in AA mode.

Basically a NATO central front dedicated strike platform..

Net result, it was only Cold War orders that saved it's bacon!

The multi role Tornado offered to Japan in the late 1980's, based on a strengthened F3 airframe with GE engines (I think) and Blue Vixen Radar would have been the aircraft the MRCA should have been from the very start, a European Strike Eagle of sorts.

It could have potentially sold very well and it would have been a fantastic aircraft for the RAF, alas it was not to be....

The Germans insisted on a an smaller design for what turned into Eurofighter, but the UK stuck to it's guns and insisted on an airframe capable of no holds barred air superiority, with excess power, good internal fuel and a fuselage long enough for four underslung AMRAAM.

If the Germans had their way, Typhoon would probably have looked more like a slightly larger, twin engine Gripen and sales probably dismal....
Again not sure there's much difference internal fuel wise.
I see what you're saying, I'm not sure I'm seeing it.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I know many engineers in all 4 development nations would tell you that typhoon was some of the best work they have been involved in, in there entire career. You may dislike the the European collaboration on it but it produced a very good aircraft with a superb engine.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Engineers always get along it’s the politicians who finance them who are the problem. Four production lines, far too long to acquire full A2G capability, no Aesa yet etc
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 06 Sep 2022, 18:02 Engineers always get along it’s the politicians who finance them who are the problem. Four production lines, far too long to acquire full A2G capability, no Aesa yet etc
Absolutely, Thypoon is an excellent platform, but having four production lines in Europe was just insane and the snails pace of implementing AESA and full A to G capability has hurt exports, 'far' too many chefs in the kitchen.....
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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topman wrote: 06 Sep 2022, 16:53
mrclark303 wrote: 06 Sep 2022, 00:03
topman wrote: 05 Sep 2022, 21:38 I wouldn't say typhoon is much bigger than tornado. They are both a similar size.
Evening Topman, yep of comparable like by like size.

But they are radically different aircraft, Tornado was originally envisioned as a multi role aircraft, but German insistence on an aircraft as small as possible effectively constrained the design to a low level, comparatively short range, low level specialist.

The engine ended up being a specialised and rather underpowered low level optimised turbofan and the radar virtually AG dedicated, with only simple AA modes available. You would be in deep sh*t indeed if you found yourself actually forced to use it in AA mode.

Basically a NATO central front dedicated strike platform..

Net result, it was only Cold War orders that saved it's bacon!

The multi role Tornado offered to Japan in the late 1980's, based on a strengthened F3 airframe with GE engines (I think) and Blue Vixen Radar would have been the aircraft the MRCA should have been from the very start, a European Strike Eagle of sorts.

It could have potentially sold very well and it would have been a fantastic aircraft for the RAF, alas it was not to be....

The Germans insisted on a an smaller design for what turned into Eurofighter, but the UK stuck to it's guns and insisted on an airframe capable of no holds barred air superiority, with excess power, good internal fuel and a fuselage long enough for four underslung AMRAAM.

If the Germans had their way, Typhoon would probably have looked more like a slightly larger, twin engine Gripen and sales probably dismal....
Again not sure there's much difference internal fuel wise.
I see what you're saying, I'm not sure I'm seeing it.
I suppose my point in summary, is Tornado was narrowly focused on relatively short range low level strike. German insistence on the smallest airframe possible, hamstrung and barred the airframe from ever being developed into a multi role asset.

Had it been a multi role aircraft, it could have sold in the thousands and replaced fleets of F4 Phantoms.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I’m not sure why tornado is being classed as short or in some way not versatile. It’s doing every combat mission the airforce required and on some pretty long missions.

Your assuming that combat aircraft are sold purely on capability they are not. People buy combat aircraft largely on buying political influence mainly with the US. Thought sovereignty of capability is becoming much more to the fore, especially after the US pulled Turkey from f35

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 08:05 I’m not sure why tornado is being classed as short or in some way not versatile. It’s doing every combat mission the airforce required and on some pretty long missions.

Your assuming that combat aircraft are sold purely on capability they are not. People buy combat aircraft largely on buying political influence mainly with the US. Thought sovereignty of capability is becoming much more to the fore, especially after the US pulled Turkey from f35
Morning SW1, I suppose we are just viewing this from different perspectives.

You are looking at the project ' as built ' I am looking at the project as devised and launched.

The UK had carried out a tremendous amount of hard work via the AFVGA and UKVGA, reaching the mockup stage and crucially wing glove and pivot experimental work. This should have been the basis of the new aircraft and would have led to a first flight and entry into service significantly earlier.

The Germans insisted on a clean sheet design, though UK research was certainly 'pivotal' (excuse the pun)
this and the switch to specialised, razor focused low level strike, significantly limited export potential.

Canada left the project early on for this very reason. That should have been a warning.

At the end of the day SW1, military aircraft have four forces acting on them, thrust, drag, lift and politics.....!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Entirely unsurprising behaviour from a company whose marketing strategy 'used' (presumably they stopped) to involve briefcases of banknotes handed to allied defence ministers and minor royals:



After the UK, Japan and Italy, they must be getting anxious about other F-35 nations jumping ship, rather than coming back for a repeat order.



Would be curious who that non-Euro F-35 user is. Australia, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and at a push Thailand? (Listed in presumed reverse likelihood).
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Can't see Israel as too much under us bankroll,south Korea already developed own new fighter and not sure how Japan/ s Korea relationship is at moment, Australia would be great but think US could possibly offer Australia their 6th gen fighter , stranger things are happening ATM in the world before people say America wouldn't share their new fighter,I'm not so sure they wouldn't . maybe turkey is asking,not sure how far that would go tho tbh, maybe Saudi Arabia? Europe maybe Spain and Germany showing interest in case France goes it alone if can't all agree ,but God please not Germany no way .or even Poland,that's my 2 penny worth rightly or wrongly 👍

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 15:17 Entirely unsurprising behaviour from a company whose marketing strategy 'used' (presumably they stopped) to involve briefcases of banknotes handed to allied defence ministers and minor royals:



After the UK, Japan and Italy, they must be getting anxious about other F-35 nations jumping ship, rather than coming back for a repeat order.



Would be curious who that non-Euro F-35 user is. Australia, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and at a push Thailand? (Listed in presumed reverse likelihood).
Hopefuly HMG won’t listen and if anything put the rock up the A** of Temepest now that it looks like Japan are coming close to being full partners.

I hope the other none Euro nation is Australia, seeing them join or at least purchase Tempest could be a push to Canada. It’d be great to see another CANZUK “joint buy”

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Hey LM try integrating our weaponry in less than 11 years and maybe you will have a leg to stand on.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defe ... es-systems

From April 2017 and they are stating a 2028 before its done.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jake1992 wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 17:15
Jensy wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 15:17 Entirely unsurprising behaviour from a company whose marketing strategy 'used' (presumably they stopped) to involve briefcases of banknotes handed to allied defence ministers and minor royals:



After the UK, Japan and Italy, they must be getting anxious about other F-35 nations jumping ship, rather than coming back for a repeat order.



Would be curious who that non-Euro F-35 user is. Australia, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and at a push Thailand? (Listed in presumed reverse likelihood).
Hopefuly HMG won’t listen and if anything put the rock up the A** of Temepest now that it looks like Japan are coming close to being full partners.

I hope the other none Euro nation is Australia, seeing them join or at least purchase Tempest could be a push to Canada. It’d be great to see another CANZUK “joint buy”
Non Euro. - Australia and Saudi Arabia?
What are the Saudis buying next? Not allowed F35, not allowed Typhoon (thanks Germany)
Australia’s F35 deliveries are almost complete, an F18f replacement in the late 30s could make sense
Europe - Poland? T31,CAMM, Tenpest for the hat trick

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 19:33
Jake1992 wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 17:15
Jensy wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 15:17 Entirely unsurprising behaviour from a company whose marketing strategy 'used' (presumably they stopped) to involve briefcases of banknotes handed to allied defence ministers and minor royals:



After the UK, Japan and Italy, they must be getting anxious about other F-35 nations jumping ship, rather than coming back for a repeat order.



Would be curious who that non-Euro F-35 user is. Australia, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and at a push Thailand? (Listed in presumed reverse likelihood).
Hopefuly HMG won’t listen and if anything put the rock up the A** of Temepest now that it looks like Japan are coming close to being full partners.

I hope the other none Euro nation is Australia, seeing them join or at least purchase Tempest could be a push to Canada. It’d be great to see another CANZUK “joint buy”
Non Euro. - Australia and Saudi Arabia?
What are the Saudis buying next? Not allowed F35, not allowed Typhoon (thanks Germany)
Australia’s F35 deliveries are almost complete, an F18f replacement in the late 30s could make sense
Europe - Poland? T31,CAMM, Tenpest for the hat trick
Oh I think if Tempest pulls through a good 6th gen then any Typhoo using mild east nation will but it.

I’d Australia as like I said I could see it being the push Canada needs to buy Tempest as well adding to the joint T26 between the 3. I believe they are Growlers they have but are they used in yhe EW role of so then Tempest would need this capability or upgrade to be seen as a real replacement there.
On a side note if Australia and then Canada go Tempest and SSNR is chosen for the Aus SSN could we end up seeing Canada doing the same :D

Poland could be a good shout down the line as a buyer.

It could be that with recent Japanese anoucmente around Tempest the US and US companies are starting to see the program as a true threat to their dominance in western fighter markets.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Let's just hope the government which ever colour down the line before it could get built doesn't decide to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory and cancel and go American, especially if US decides to do a sneaky one and says ok everyone's going for the tempest and f35 sales are dropping let's offer UK or Japan our new 6th gen and that would kill off the tempest in sneaky way saying to which ever government look we really good to you ,suck up to us we offering you our latest tech that we not going to share with anyone else your honoured type of thing,so result UK or Japan kills tempest program and everyone else has to make do with upgraded f35 or French / Germany FCAS or maybe just French FCAS ,so US plc win win ,that's how I would play it

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 20:26 Let's just hope the government which ever colour down the line before it could get built doesn't decide to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory and cancel and go American, especially if US decides to do a sneaky one and says ok everyone's going for the tempest and f35 sales are dropping let's offer UK or Japan our new 6th gen and that would kill off the tempest in sneaky way saying to which ever government look we really good to you ,suck up to us we offering you our latest tech that we not going to share with anyone else your honoured type of thing,so result UK or Japan kills tempest program and everyone else has to make do with upgraded f35 or French / Germany FCAS or maybe just French FCAS ,so US plc win win ,that's how I would play it
In truth, we've self-sabotaged as many, if not far more, of our own promising aerospace programmes as the Yanks have.

Japan's desire to switch partners is not a great look for the US. If they get caught out playing dirty tricks then the reputational damage could be even greater.

At the moment Northrup Grumman is their only prime that seems capable of delivering the goods, on time and on budget. Hopefully they'll win one of the US NGAD projects. Not sure either will be offered for export whilst the F-35 is still selling to customers.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 07 Sep 2022, 20:26 Let's just hope the government which ever colour down the line before it could get built doesn't decide to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory and cancel and go American, especially if US decides to do a sneaky one and says ok everyone's going for the tempest and f35 sales are dropping let's offer UK or Japan our new 6th gen and that would kill off the tempest in sneaky way saying to which ever government look we really good to you ,suck up to us we offering you our latest tech that we not going to share with anyone else your honoured type of thing,so result UK or Japan kills tempest program and everyone else has to make do with upgraded f35 or French / Germany FCAS or maybe just French FCAS ,so US plc win win ,that's how I would play it
Evening Inch,

I would think Saudi Arabia are ' high' on the Tempest export list, with a requirement to replace their Thypoon and early F15's. They might even become junior partners....

I didn't know the Germans had put a halt to our hoped for tranche two order for the Saudi's?

Keep them well away from Tempest!!!!

The biggest threat to Tempest is F35. I firmly believe LM are looking forward to simplifying the F35 line and ending B and C production. Both models will be running down as US orders for the variants reach completion.

After that, the price of a B model will become extremely expensive, without regular USMC orders to moderate the price.

I think LM will concentrate on an advanced A variant with new avionics and powerplant, then push hard to corner the market post 2030 using every dirty trick in the book!

You can see LM pitching an advanced F35 variant to the Mod, with an increased UK content and perhaps UK assembly.

It's absolutely vital that a Tempest technology demonstrator gets wind under its wings asap, it it can prove its worth and assuming it's backed to the hilt by future UK governments, it stands a fighting chance.

One things for sure, if it becomes an Anglo Japanese programme, it will be on much firmer ground..

We can only hope.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Well the announced timing for the demonstrator is “within 5 years”, formalisation of Japans involvement can only speed that up.
How vulnerable would the project be to a change in government? “New Labour PM axes thousands of jobs in Lancashire in favour of buying American”, not sure how well that would fly.
But yes you can never rule out the possibility of LM “doing a Starfighter”
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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"New Labour PM axes thousands of jobs in Lancashire in favour of buying American”

Hmm, sounds familiar, TSR2 anyone!

Let's hope history dosen't repeat itself!
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I wonder what Japan's future carrier ambitions are?
Maybe a carrier capable Tempest would raise a few eyebrows.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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:clap: A STOVL would be AWSOME if they could make it work just aswell if not better than the F35 B !!! but would cost soooo much money ! Extreamly unlikely but could fit in well for the RN, Italian navy & the conversion of the jmsdf Izumo - p 1154 mk2 :clap: :thumbup: :thumbup: but without the cancelation !!! would be good to deliver a few CTOL ones ( 60+ ) to RAF then alternate STOVL/CTOL in 2045 to replace the joint force Lightnings that maybe geting nakerd trough maritime use.- & possible sales to other Navys....OK im down a rabbit hole now :wtf: :roll: :crazy:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lol,not ever going to happen folks ,why would it , f35b still a very young aircraft for the carrier wings around the world,why would they try to reinvent the wheel when a already a new aircraft ,let's just dream that tempest happens with lots of partners ( not Germany) and sells shit loads, affordable and has 2nd best tech to American in the world , fingers crossed
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 11 Sep 2022, 14:01 Lol,not ever going to happen folks ,why would it , f35b still a very young aircraft for the carrier wings around the world,why would they try to reinvent the wheel when a already a new aircraft ,let's just dream that tempest happens with lots of partners ( not Germany) and sells shit loads, affordable and has 2nd best tech to American in the world , fingers crossed
Absolutely Inch, carrier and STOVL capability add to cost and complexity massively, constrain overall size and all up weight.

No, no and no again....

Tempest needs to be F22 sized, with a large flexible weapons bay, very capable and extensive avionics and large internal fuel load...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 18:54 Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.
I'm guessing something along F22 lines in size, long range is going to be vital to the British and Japanese.

Designing an airframe large enough to retain the extensive avionics, the now vital high power generation ancillary equipment, fuel and large mixed AA/AG weapon loads internally, plus a possible direct energy weapon, in a stealthy package, dictates a large airframe by necessity.

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