NATO Shared Components

[abc123]

Thread for all shared NATO Components.

The NATO E-3A Component

Can somebody explain to me a few things about this unit? How much has each participating country paid for this? Also, proportion of personell/air crews from different contries?
Also, under who's command are they? Allied Command Operations or?

Edit - Changed title to suit all the components together as a "foreign defence" element, than a specific system.

[LordJim]

First off the E-3 are all registered in Luxembourg so actually are the Luxembourg Air Force!

[abc123]

First off the E-3 are all registered in Luxembourg so actually are the Luxembourg Air Force!

Yes, I know that.

[LordJim]

Thought you might but it was for general consumption. Finding out the very specific dat a you are looking for could be tricky as I don't think it I sin the public domain. The Programme was run from AFCENT back in the day and it probably controlled from SHAPE now, being one SACEUR's (If he or she is still called that) key assets. I do know all NATO countries contribute to the costs in one way or another, with our E-3s being considered part of the system though we have the ability to use them outside of NATO operations as de the French I
believe.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Joint proc picking up speed... a short step to joint training and maintenance (which, still, shared component make not):

Germany and Norway will join France and Luxembourg in their European multinational tanker transport program. Launched in 2016, the program initially sought to acquire two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft, but this will now be expanded to a fleet of seven. Belgium is expected to join the program in 2018, and the initiative remains open to other new members. With the first aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2020, the program aims to address the European shortage in air-to-air refueling and the over-reliance on US capabilities.


[...] Seven NATO members have announced that they will cooperate on the development of new maritime multi-mission aircraft. Defense Ministers from France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain and Turkey [WHO IS HIDING HERE?] signed a Letter of Intent on “Cooperation on Multinational Maritime Multi Mission Aircraft Capabilities,” which aims to replace ageing maritime patrol aircraft fleets with new maritime anti-submarine and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft and a possible joint acquisition.

[abc123]

Joint proc picking up speed... a short step to joint training and maintenance (which, still, shared component make not):

Germany and Norway will join France and Luxembourg in their European multinational tanker transport program. Launched in 2016, the program initially sought to acquire two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft, but this will now be expanded to a fleet of seven. Belgium is expected to join the program in 2018, and the initiative remains open to other new members. With the first aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2020, the program aims to address the European shortage in air-to-air refueling and the over-reliance on US capabilities.

My God, Germans will buy how many? Whole 4 ( FOUR! ) tankers?

I feel relieved about the future European Army.

[Timmymagic]

Germany and Norway will join France and Luxembourg in their European multinational tanker transport program. Launched in 2016, the program initially sought to acquire two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft, but this will now be expanded to a fleet of seven.

I'm pretty certain France and Spain have got their own orders for A330. It was the Netherlands and Luxembourg who kicked off the A330 pool idea. Poland was in at one point as well, Belgium has signed up as well.

[Frenchie]

The Military Programming Act 2014-2019 provides the acquisition of 12 A330 MRTT refueling aircrafts.

This program is of primordial importance. Refueling aircrafts are fundamental to allow the Strategic Air Forces to fulfill their mission, and thus to ensure the permanence of the airborne component of nuclear deterrence. And without them, we can make a cross about the projection capabilities in the Sahelo-Saharan band and the Middle East.

At the moment, 9 A330 MRTTs have been ordered by the Ministry of Defense from Airbus. The first will be delivered in 2018, the second in 2019. And the others will follow at the rate of two units per year. As for the remaining three aircrafts, their order should be confirmed next year.

That said, there must be a new Military Programming Act in the first quarter of 2018 for the period 2019-2025, the number of aircraft could be increased by two units and the program would be accelerated, this would make 14 aircrafts in a shorter period.

[muttbutt]

Joint proc picking up speed... a short step to joint training and maintenance (which, still, shared component make not):

Germany and Norway will join France and Luxembourg in their European multinational tanker transport program. Launched in 2016, the program initially sought to acquire two Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft, but this will now be expanded to a fleet of seven. Belgium is expected to join the program in 2018, and the initiative remains open to other new members. With the first aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2020, the program aims to address the European shortage in air-to-air refueling and the over-reliance on US capabilities.

My God, Germans will buy how many? Whole 4 ( FOUR! ) tankers?

I feel relieved about the future European Army.

The Luftwaffe will also be equipping their A400M's with AAR pods...

[abc123]

Yes, but considering that Germany want's to have a main role in future European defence, they need more than 4. If UK and France will have 14 and 12-14, then Germany needs more, at least 10, to be credible...

[Frenchie]

The European defence is a joke, if there is a war somewhere, the time everyone agrees, the war is over. I believe more in a weapons industry more or less common, but I prefer that France works with the British and the Italians than with the Germans, they are too arrogant.

[Defiance]

The European defence is a joke, if there is a war somewhere, the time everyone agrees, the war is over. I believe more in a weapons industry more or less common, but I prefer that France works with the British and the Italians than with the Germans, they are too arrogant.

Streamlined procurement seems like the logical progression, however you've got various countries with national industries to protect and may be betting the farm entirely on what comes next. To maintain skills, a number of them may want to duke it out for the whole pie. Not that they'll be successful mind, but it won't be a dignified process.

[Timmymagic]

The European defence is a joke, if there is a war somewhere, the time everyone agrees, the war is over. I believe more in a weapons industry more or less common, but I prefer that France works with the British and the Italians than with the Germans, they are too arrogant

I'm afraid on recent evidence I'd rather the UK worked with the Italians. Despite many attempts co-operation with France or Germany has never been plain sailing. It seems, at least for the UK, unless the UK takes the lead (Eurofighter, Meteor and Sea Venom) everything either doesn't happen, goes wrong or proceeds at a glacial pace.

[Timmymagic]

Yes, but considering that Germany want's to have a main role in future European defence, they need more than 4. If UK and France will have 14 and 12-14, then Germany needs more, at least 10, to be credible...

I think we need to step back a little and look at it from a continent wide perspective. In those terms air to air refueling capability in Europe has never been in better health with a capability already in place that is vastly greater than before and only improving in size. On current plans Europe could have c40 A330 MRTT, 10x767 and A310 MRTT and c140 AAR capable A400M in service. Quite simply that is a colossal AAR capability and second only to the USAF.

It's the same with other support forces. Air transport has never been in better shape in Europe, Reconaissance capabilities, Comms capabilities and the Fleet Auxiliaries across European navies have been refreshed in recent years and have grown in size and capability. In terms of ability to deploy, support and sustain forces globally, or regionally, Europe has not been in this good shape before. Whether there are the forces to do that is another matter...

[Timmymagic]

Yes, but considering that Germany want's to have a main role in future European defence, they need more than 4. If UK and France will have 14 and 12-14, then Germany needs more, at least 10, to be credible...

Don't forget the Germans have A310 MRTT and A400 as well.

[abc123]

Yes, but considering that Germany want's to have a main role in future European defence, they need more than 4. If UK and France will have 14 and 12-14, then Germany needs more, at least 10, to be credible...

Don't forget the Germans have A310 MRTT and A400 as well.

I was thinking that A310 will be replaced by A330?

I agree, Europe is trying to rectify these issues, but:

a) it will need a long time before A400 is really used in AAR role, especially in numbers

b) you have to discount Britain now, after Brexit

c) Germany needs more than 4. Now, will that be 8, 10 or I don't know how much, but more definitly.

[Frenchie]

The European defence is a joke, if there is a war somewhere, the time everyone agrees, the war is over. I believe more in a weapons industry more or less common, but I prefer that France works with the British and the Italians than with the Germans, they are too arrogant

I'm afraid on recent evidence I'd rather the UK worked with the Italians. Despite many attempts co-operation with France or Germany has never been plain sailing. It seems, at least for the UK, unless the UK takes the lead (Eurofighter, Meteor and Sea Venom) everything either doesn't happen, goes wrong or proceeds at a glacial pace.

About Eurofighter, France needs a multi-role aircraft, while the other countries wanted a fighter destined for air superiority, if some European countries want to associate with France to build a 6th generation aircraft , It will have to take into account the French needs.

[Timmymagic]

The A310 MRTT aren't that old. In AAR terms they've got a long life ahead of them. It may be that the A310 platform may not be the easiest to support for future years. It was no spring chicken when they chose it with the last significant production run being almost 10 years earlier. It might make some sense for them to standardise on A330, with its increased capability rather than have a mixed fleet. I've not seen anything to suggest that but happy to be corrected.

Agreed on the A400. quite how many actually get fitted with the AAR gear will be interesting to note. With the volume of A330's around and the commercial tanking capability it might be very few.

[Timmymagic]

About Eurofighter, France needs a multi-role aircraft, while the other countries wanted a fighter destined for air superiority, if some European countries want to associate with France to build a 6th generation aircraft , It will have to take into account the French needs.

Thats what's commonly thought, and the UK and Germany did want an emphasis on air combat. But don't forget the UK's requirement expected the aircraft to be multirole as it would be replacing the Jaguar in service. The biggest issue as ever was regarding control, industrial share, compromises for naval use with the final straw being France's insistence on using the M88 engine that the other partners saw as inferior to the EJ-200.

As to a '6th' generation aircraft I think we'll have to wait and see. I just can't see it going ahead.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Integration taking baby steps (bi & trilateral; the UK as a framework nation for JEF being a much bigger leap in one go).

2 (the mech & the air assault ones) of the 3 Dutch bdes are already under German command. Conversely, Karel Doorman is manned and paid for by 3 nations (belgium is missing from the quote below, they have 35 Marines rotating through the ship's complement) and , of late, the Franco-german sqdrn of Hercs was set up:

"The German sea battalion, which has about 800 servicemen and women, consists of a naval protection force, mine-clearance divers and boarding soldiers and is stationed in Northern Germany. According to a German Defense Ministry release, the naval forces will regularly exchange personnel and conduct joint exercises. Eventually, the Netherlands will also be the Bundeswehr's main partner for long-distance sea transport.

The countries' agreement includes a provision allowing the German Navy to use the new 205-meter Karel Doorman, which is designed for the strategic transport of personnel and material plus supplying other ships. Furthermore, the Karel Doorman is suited for landing operations with heavy equipment and helicopters. Due to budget constraints, the Dutch have used the ship, which entered service last year, with a reduced crew while seeking a partner to operate it. According to a Dutch Ministry of Defense spokesman, the details of the cooperation and Germany's financial contribution still have to be negotiated.

On the ship, German soldiers will be trained by Dutch comrades, von der Leyen said. Last year, detachments of the sea battalion with their vehicles participated in a landing exercise, conducted by the Dutch Marines – the Korps Mariniers - off the Dutch coast. Due to the new agreement, the German Navy must forgo the acquisition of two joint support ships, the German Defense Ministry announced last week. Germany has no significant amphibious capacities of its own.

A technical agreement to integrate the Dutch 43rd mechanized brigade into the 1st Panzer Division of the German Army was also signed, after being announced last year. Von der Leyen had previously unveiled plans for a multinational Armored Division for training and exercise with up to 20,000 soldiers in the coming year. She described the Dutch-German military cooperation as an example for setting up a European defense union.

According to the Dutch Defense Ministry, both countries agreed last week to cooperate even more closely in matters of air and missile defense, which will lead to a joint training facility being established. Moreover, the attachment of a German ground-based air-defense unit to a Dutch command is under consideration. Both countries also want to examine options for short-range air defense. Since the sale of its anti-aircraft tanks Gepard (Cheetah) to Brazil and Romania, the German Army has no air defense at close range to protect its mechanized forces.

With Thursday's agreement, the Netherlands have officially put two of their three Army brigades under German command. Already in 2014 the Dutch 11th Air Mobile Brigade was integrated into the German Division of fast forces (DSK)."

[LordJim]

I assume to were still referring to the Dutch when mentioning the lack of SHORAD. Multinational formations is really the only way forward for larger formation within the European component of NATO. But to really work there has to be more commonality with equipment, as any that existing already has been more by luck that design. All of the above is a subject NATO has been avoiding tackling, instead issuing many statement saying what it wants (dreams) of achieving.

Planning should be underway now and decisions like the successor to the Leopard 2 becoming the standard NATO tank with Leopard 2 being handed to the poorer nations being made. Another would be the AH-64 being made the standard AH for NATO. More importantly a timeline needs to be established. Further saving by reductions in force size are becoming more politically difficult, so consolidated maintenance and logistics is an area that should be investigated. NATO's future needs it to be integrated to a much greater level than ever before if it is to remain a viable military force on any real scale.

[ArmChairCivvy]

multinational formations is really the only way forward for larger formation within the European component of NATO. But [...] there has to be more commonality with equipment, as any that existing already has been more by luck that design.

- agreed, and Belgium just jumped onto the Scorpion prgrm to achieve that (a nice corollary, at the same time, with the Dutch integration with Germany at divisional level)

consolidated maintenance and logistics is an area that should be investigated

- agreed even more so; something both Frenchie and myself have been posting on at every opportunity
- e.g. the Nordics (in NATO or not) have been combatting the NH90 availability problem by creating one centre of exellence for all fleets (which also helps with the availability of spares, without having to up the investment "in working capital")