Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Discuss current, historical or potential future deployments, as well the defence of the UK's overseas interests.
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arfah
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Dave
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by Dave »

arfah wrote:and carry on normal jogging (just not as tough).

Argentina to create a Department for the Secretary for the South Atlantic including the Falkland Islands.

http://en.mercopress.com/2015/12/28/mal ... antarctica
No real surprise, they are like a mangy old dog with a bone...

WhiteWhale
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by WhiteWhale »

It's politics, even if the new leader has zero interest in the Falklands he would still have to do and say the same old gestures in order to keep support and votes from a few corners. Much like how Dave insists that he likes and is protecting the NHS when you know in reality he wants to dismantle it and sell the bits to his uni mates.

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by JayDee »

Ugh...

Argentina's new government says it will press claims to Falkland Islands

Buenos Aires demands talks over future of disputed territory dashing hopes that Mauricio Macri will offer more conciliatory approach than Cristina Kirchner, Argentina's new conservative government said on Sunday night that it would continue to push the country's claim to the Falkland Islands, dashing hopes that a change of government in Buenos Aries may herald a new era of improving relations with London.

Diplomatic ties between the UK and Argentina deteriorated during the eight-year, populist rule of Cristina Kirchner, who placed the future of the islands at the heart of her foreign policy.

'We have to restore this relationship that has been frozen in recent years, as a result of this conflict'
Fulvio Pompeo

She stepped down last month and her successor, Mauricio Macri, a pro-business centrist politician, said he planned a less aggressive tack.

However, on Sunday his government issued a statement insisting that it wanted to press ahead with negotiations to settle the dispute.

"Argentina renews its firm commitment to peacefully settling its differences, to international law and multilateralism,” said the foreign ministry.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lands.html

Little J
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by Little J »

However, on Sunday his government issued a statement insisting that it wanted to press ahead with negotiations to settle the dispute.

"Argentina renews its firm commitment to peacefully settling its differences, to international law and multilateralism,” said the foreign ministry.
The people living there are never going to vote to join you, glad I could settle that for you :D



Is it coincidence that he didn't really give a rats arse until he got in power and saw the financial shite the country is in?

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Pseudo
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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It's probably worth remembering that there's public support in Argentina for their claim, some of which is pretty vehement and tied in to the idea of honouring the veterans of the 1982 invasion. I can certainly understand why the Macri government would look to reassure people that they'd seek to be active on the matter, but until they actually try to pursue it in a meaningful way we can't be sure that it isn't just strong words to placate a vocal minority.

Maybe we should wait to see if they start haranguing Cameron at the UN or such like before condemning them.

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

TD has just come out with the 2nd piece in a series of 4, covering the previous conflict
- it is not just the crux of the matter part in the overall treatise, but also covers the history of sliding from "almost co-operation" into armed conflict
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Dave
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by Dave »

At least CMD came out with a quick response essentially telling the new El Prez to jog on.
Mr Cameron's official spokeswoman said today: "We are very clear that the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands should be determined by the Islanders and they expressed their view very clearly in the recent referendum."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... n-Malvinas

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GibMariner
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by GibMariner »

Spain jumps on bandwagon, supports Argentina and calls for similar resolution for Gibraltar:

Spain calls for "dialogue" on Gibraltar after a message Argentina on Falklands

http://www.europapress.es/internacional ... 03936.html

(It's in Spanish and can't copy & paste, Google Translate does a good job though. Will update when I find an article in English)

Edit:
Spain cites Gibraltar and backs Argentine call for bilateral sovereignty dialogue
Spain has backed Argentina’s call for sovereignty talks with the UK over the Falklands, insisting that it wants the same in respect of Gibraltar.
Today the Spanish Government said it too wanted to negotiate with the UK over Gibraltar, “in line with UN resolutions”.
“In common with Argentina, Spain seeks bilateral dialogue with the United Kingdom to find a definitive solution to both issues that impact on the territorial integrity of Argentina and Spain,” the Ministry for Foreign Affairs in Madrid said in a statement.
http://chronicle.gi/2016/01/06/spain-ci ... -dialogue/

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

GibMariner wrote:Spain cites Gibraltar and backs Argentine call for bilateral sovereignty dialogue

Spain has backed Argentina’s call for sovereignty talks with the UK over the Falklands, insisting that it wants the same in respect of Gibraltar.
Killing two birds with one stone? Do they hope to get the nationalised oil company back (it was the biggest exploration op in Argentina, at least to the point of nationalisation) and get somewhere with Gib?
- why don't we confirm support to Morocco over Ceuta and Melilla. I don't think there is any written treaty, Spain just simply grabbed them (and a lot of the now independent Morocco in the same go)
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Pseudo
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:- why don't we confirm support to Morocco over Ceuta and Melilla. I don't think there is any written treaty, Spain just simply grabbed them (and a lot of the now independent Morocco in the same go)
Because if we push the position that Morocco's claim is legitimate we're supporting the notion that territorial integrity is a valid reason for such claims and could therefore be seen as a tacitly accepting that Spain's claim was legitimate. Well, that and between Spain and Argentina their's quite enough childishness going around on this.

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GibMariner
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: Killing two birds with one stone? Do they hope to get the nationalised oil company back (it was the biggest exploration op in Argentina, at least to the point of nationalisation) and get somewhere with Gib?
- why don't we confirm support to Morocco over Ceuta and Melilla. I don't think there is any written treaty, Spain just simply grabbed them (and a lot of the now independent Morocco in the same go)
I can't speak about the oil company, which I have no idea about, but the conquest of Gibraltar is an established national ambition, which fills the wet dreams of many on the Spanish right wing and they will do whatever they can to further that ambition. Also, much like Argentina with the Falklands, Gibraltar serves to distract from internal problems: with last month's general election results, which have resulted in no single party having enough seats to form a government and due to their clash of ideologies, a coalition would be difficult, if not impossible to arrange; added to that is the ever-growing spectre of Catalan separatism; corruption charges against royalty and leading politicians etc,etc - yelling "Gibraltar español!" every now and then makes them feel better.

As Pseudo says, if the UK were to recognise Morocco's claims on Ceuta, Melilla and the other 'places of sovereignty' (see here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... eutral.png) on the grounds that they disrupt Morocco's territorial integrity - as Spain claims Gibraltar does to its own territorial integrity, it would seriously undermine Britain's position. The UK has rightly stood by the Falklands and Gibraltar on the right of self-determination for the people who live there, as Spain rightly does with Ceuta and Melilla.

In fact, Britain has long supported Spain's claim to Ceuta, even encouraging the creation of the Spanish protectorate in northern Morocco in the 1904 Entente Cordiale with France to ensure that the strategically important North African coast to the south of Gibraltar would be safe in the hands of a weaker empire than the French.

At the risk of further derailing this thread, the story of how Ceuta and Melilla came to be Spanish territories is a long one so I'll try to summarise as best I can. The Spanish position on Ceuta and Melilla is simple: they have been Spanish since before Morocco existed and as such they have no claim to them, end of story.

This version of history excludes the fact that much of Spain was ruled by Muslim caliphates that originated from what is today known as Morocco, and that it was the northern Spanish Kingdom of Aragon which helped the Kingdom of Fez (which was one of the states of the King of Morocco) seize Ceuta and the surrounding region in order to undermine the Kingdom of Granada in the 14th Century.

Portugal captured Ceuta in 1415. Spain and Portugal were joined in a personal union under Phillip II of Spain (Iberian Union - 1580-1640), which ended in a war for the restoration of Portugal and its empire. This war came to an end in 1668 with the Treaty of Lisbon, mediated by England, in which Spain recognised the sovereignty of Portugal under the House of Braganza, and Portugal ceded a single territory to Spain - Ceuta. During those 60 years of personal union, Ceuta received an influx of Spanish settlers and when Portugal fought for its independence, Ceuta sided with Spain.

Melilla was captured by the forces of the Duke of Medina Sidonia at the behest of Queen Isabella I of Castile and King Ferdinand II of Aragon, from the Kingdom of Fez, in 1497 and was besieged a few times by Moroccan forces in the following centuries.

An opportunistic Spain declared war on Morocco in 1859, viewing their defeat at the hands of the French in 1844 and trade treaties with Britain in 1856 as signs of weakness, they swept through northern Morocco and captured the city of Tetouan. After this, Britain pressured both sides to negotiate, resulting in the Treaty of Wad Ras in 1860, under which Morocco recognised Spanish sovereignty over Ceuta and Melilla as well ceding the territory of Ifni on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which Spain would hold until 1969. Franco incorporated Ifni, Ceuta and Melilla as provinces of Spain to get around pressure from the UN decolonisation committee, which Spain uses as a rod to beat Gibraltar with to this day.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

GibMariner wrote:Treaty of Wad Ras in 1860, under which Morocco recognised Spanish sovereignty over Ceuta and Melilla
Thanks, turns my position on its head!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by marktigger »

don't the french have islands in the pacfic and caribbean that are considered part of metropolitan france that they claim EU funding for. Couldn't we amment the UK to United kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, The Falkland Islands and Gibraltar. Give them seats in Westminster to replace some of the Welsh and Scottish?

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

Post by Pseudo »

marktigger wrote:don't the french have islands in the pacfic and caribbean that are considered part of metropolitan france that they claim EU funding for. Couldn't we amment the UK to United kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, The Falkland Islands and Gibraltar. Give them seats in Westminster to replace some of the Welsh and Scottish?
arfah wrote:Are the French territories disputed ?
Also, we'd be opening a huge can of worms starting with every other BOST potentially wanting similar representation.

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Re: Falkland Islands (British Overseas Territory)

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Incorporating Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda or any other British overseas territory into the UK might have been possible 50 years ago, but nowadays it's a non-starter.

I can only speak from what I've observed in Gibraltar and the political situation here but very few people (especially not the political elite) would be willing to give up our virtual "independence" to be ruled directly from Westminster or for Gib's parliament to be reduced to a local council. "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven".

It was briefly considered in the 50s/60s, but Gib's politicians didn't like the idea and the final nail in that coffin was the Hattersley Memorandum of 1976, which ruled out integration with the UK, and killed off the local Integration with Britain Party, which was briefly in office from 1969 to 1972.

Some politicians, such as Andrew Rosindell MP frequently make calls for the overseas territories to have MPs at Westminster, but are routinely shot down by politicians and mandarins, and as far as I'm aware, have no formal requests from the overseas territories themselves for this to be the case.

I think that ship sailed long ago. I can imagine that there would be similar situations in the other overseas territories, where it would be seen as an insult, or at worst neo-imperialism, for Britain to do away with the self-government that's been encouraged for over half a century.

The FCO would also be another hurdle and they have never really encouraged any sort of cohesion or unity between the BOTs.

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