Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

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AndyC
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

My choice would be to replace the Chinook HC5 with the CV-22B version of the Osprey as this was specifically designed for US Special Operations Command.

As to cost. Israel was offered eight Osprey for U$1.5 billion in 2014 - a unit cost of U$188 million.

We were offered sixteen Extended Range Chinooks in 2018 for U$3.5 billion - a unit cost of U$219 million!

These figures look huge but I assume they are for whole life cost.

Scimitar54
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Scimitar54 »

33% reduction in fleet numbers but Tilt-rotor is twice as fast! Therefore the lesser number can potentially achieve a far higher sortie rate. In this case it would seem that less is indeed more! :mrgreen:

SW1
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

But can still only be in one place at time.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RunningStrong wrote:The constant bickering over who gets what helicopter
Agree; CAS and NAS being special cases (and as the CHF Merlins are mechanically close to their ASW/AEW brothers, may be they fit within that special case, too, being at times maintained on the "same" ships).
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

topman
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by topman »

RunningStrong wrote:
BlueD954 wrote:
SW1 wrote:If you want to see a much smaller number of helicopters going fwd tilt rotors are the best way to achieve it.
Fewer = How many?

Fewer titlt rotors which current fleet are you goin to dispose - Puma, Merlin or Chinook? Or is there a huge budget to put them in storage?

Who is going to fly these fewer tilt-rotors - RAF Army or RN FAA?
I would say Puma, and who cares? Create a joint force and allow all arms to populate. The constant bickering over who gets what helicopter is boring.

And showing my ignorance, what is the role of Puma?
You mean like joint helicopter command?

RunningStrong
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by RunningStrong »

Looking at the Puma specs, could it be replaced by the V280 Valor?

topman wrote:
RunningStrong wrote: I would say Puma, and who cares? Create a joint force and allow all arms to populate. The constant bickering over who gets what helicopter is boring.

And showing my ignorance, what is the role of Puma?
You mean like joint helicopter command?
Except JHC is still RAF pilots in RAF cabs, Army pilots in Army cabs, and Navy pilots in Navy cabs. It's a joint command but it's not a join force, so you still get bickering so that each force retains cabs and pilot slots.

Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Little J »

SW1 wrote:
BlueD954 wrote:
SW1 wrote:If you want to see a much smaller number of helicopters going fwd tilt rotors are the best way to achieve it.
Fewer = How many?

Fewer titlt rotors which current fleet are you goin to dispose - Puma, Merlin or Chinook? Or is there a huge budget to put them in storage?

Who is going to fly these fewer tilt-rotors - RAF Army or RN FAA?
Well I suspect the operating cost of a tiltrotor will be in the order of 25-35% more than a normal helicopter so reduction in numbers by around that amount. More if you want v22. Would suspect your looking at the wildcat, puma Merlin fleets replacements. Wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole if it was me.
Plus they cost a lot more to buy in the first place...

Operating costs I believe are closer to the 35% mark than the 25% one...

One of Bell's biggest challenges with the Valour is to get the operating costs down, otherwise it doesn't stand a chance against that massive Sikorsky thing.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Little J wrote:to get the operating costs down, otherwise it doesn't stand a chance against that massive Sikorsky thing.
They could always tell porkies. like LM about the F-35?
- oops, I forgot that there was no alternative to go to, in that game
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

AndyC wrote:We were offered sixteen Extended Range Chinooks in 2018 for U$3.5 billion
Didn't we buy them for 2 bn (I forget whether in £ or $, £s likely)
- US was reducing their buy as they were not planning on a rerun of Iraq... so we got them for a 'song' :)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Scimitar54
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Scimitar54 »

SW1 Wrote “ But can still only be in one place at time.”

In the time it takes a Helicopter to depart for and return from a sortie, a Tilt-Rotor could have completed 2 x sorties, to different destinations. It is therefore possible to say that a Tilt-Rotor can indeed be in Twice as many places as a Helicopter within a given time period.

A supposed 33% reduction in numbers could in fact give an increase of 33% in asset availability. :mrgreen:

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

If we did get a small number (6 to 8) of Tilt Rotors for the SF they would probably hide them as RAF Mildenhall with the USAF platforms, but equipped more like the SOCOM platforms, but with no nationality markings. All the infrastructure is there to support them and they could be kept off books/Black.

Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Little J »

Lord Jim wrote:If we did get a small number (6 to 8) of Tilt Rotors for the SF they would probably hide them as RAF Mildenhall with the USAF platforms, but equipped more like the SOCOM platforms, but with no nationality markings. All the infrastructure is there to support them and they could be kept off books/Black.
Maybe they do that already!?! :shh: :thumbup:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

One tabloid said that our SF was getting them
... of course I paid no attention
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

Puma is still here because it’s used for moving 8-10 man teams around urban or confined operating locations, it’s also able to be quickly deployed overseas. If you see the need the operate in such urban environments going fwd then something around it’s size footprint will be needed.

The Americans love of tilt rotor is largely around operating distances in the pacific not something we need to particularly concern ourselves with.

If you want long range helicopter insertion then really chinook is the best place to go to.

We need something to replace the puma/Merlin/wildcat fleet in a common airframe that reduces the pilots workload, and is easier and simpler to maintain with a cheaper cost of ownership. Have gd hot and high performance and an ability to operate in the cold and at sea.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:long range helicopter insertion then really chinook is the best
with a chin gun mount as escorting Apaches
a. can't keep up as for the speed, and
b. can't do the range, either
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:long range helicopter insertion then really chinook is the best
with a chin gun mount as escorting Apaches
a. can't keep up as for the speed, and
b. can't do the range, either
Always been an issue though fixed wing a/c manned or unmanned such as reaper/protector/ shadow etc.could provide top cover stol fixed wing aircraft like a defender maybe a useful way of moving troops over range and much much cheaper.

topman
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by topman »

RunningStrong wrote:Looking at the Puma specs, could it be replaced by the V280 Valor?

topman wrote:
RunningStrong wrote: I would say Puma, and who cares? Create a joint force and allow all arms to populate. The constant bickering over who gets what helicopter is boring.

And showing my ignorance, what is the role of Puma?
You mean like joint helicopter command?
Except JHC is still RAF pilots in RAF cabs, Army pilots in Army cabs, and Navy pilots in Navy cabs. It's a joint command but it's not a join force, so you still get bickering so that each force retains cabs and pilot slots.
I don't see how you could manage the postings any other way and still retain some sort of coherent posting system that does all the things a posting system is suppose to do.

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AndyC
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

The main article has been updated to include the European Medium Multi-Role Helicopter as a replacement for Puma and Merlin helicopters.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_178952.htm

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AndyC
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

Last week the MoD published the Defence Equipment Plan for 2020-30.

Details can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -plan-2020

Unlike with previous plans this is just data without any text. This plan represents the situation as it was at the end of March 2020, so before the announcements contained in the four-year Spending Review.

At this time, Joint Helicopter Command had one order of £1.1 billion left outstanding on equipment procurement for upgrading fifty WAH-64D Apache to AH-64E Guardian standard.

In addition, the Helicopters budget has £1.6 billion of uncommitted equipment procurement which could be spent as below:

Helicopters Operating Centre Budget 2020-30 - £1.6 billion in Uncommitted Equipment Procurement.

£740 million of essential extras:
• £400 million on refurbishing the remaining 13 WAH-64D to AH-64E standard – unit cost U$40 million; £/U$ rate 1.30
• £200 million to upgrade an additional eight Merlin HM1 to HMA2 standard
• £100 million to integrate Brimstone 3B and Martlet on to Wildcat AH1 – unit cost £1.5 million per missile and
• £35 million for top-up order of 400 Hellfire missiles.

£1.24 billion of desirable and optional extras:
• £1.16 billion on eight CV-22B Osprey VTOL aircraft – unit cost U$188 million based on proposed January 2014 sale to Israel, total U$1.5 billion for eight; £/U$ rate 1.30
• £20 million for three Dauphin II – unit cost £7 million and
• £60 million to integrate Sea Venom on to Merlin HMA2 – unit cost £1.5 million.

Helicopters Budget spending totals £1.98 billion – £380 million overcommitted.

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

The eight referred to Merlin HM1s are gone or at the very least non viable for upgrade having been stripped of everything including the kitchen sink. But at least that frees up £200M in your calculations and therefore reduces the overspend to around £180M.

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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote:The eight referred to Merlin HM1s are gone
According to Wiki (I know...) only 30 HM1 have been converted to HM2, so there are currently 14 HM1 "not in service". Are the Crowsnest cabs coming out of the 14 or the 30?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Little J »

They're out of the 30

SW1
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

Caribbean wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:The eight referred to Merlin HM1s are gone
According to Wiki (I know...) only 30 HM1 have been converted to HM2, so there are currently 14 HM1 "not in service". Are the Crowsnest cabs coming out of the 14 or the 30?
14 are either scraped or written off.

30 will cover all roles.

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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Scimitar54 »

There are NOT enough Merlin HM2 to cover all roles, except in a niche fashion. DNTR! :mrgreen:

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

I would rather see the Army get something able to carry a Section plus kit rather than the Puma replaced. If 16AA is to actually do what it is supposed to it needs organic troop transport, a Company at a minimum. The Chinooks can still being in the supporting units and logistics.

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