UK Shipbuilding

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

whitelancer wrote:In fact it appears they don't supply any services to anyone.
Interesting.
This is starting to smell like that 'research report' from the US that claimed Babcock being on thin ice with its main customer - which the MoD, many months later, then denied in an unusual departure from not commenting on commercial relationships
- just that the 'negative' is replaced with an illusionary(??) positive
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by RichardIC »

Just found this on another board. Makes pretty grim reading, especially in the context of hopes that Cammell may be used for construction of FSS (reminder, Harland and Wolff Belfast, the only realistic alternative, has a workforce of under 200 - so possibly not a realistic alternative at all).

UK polar research ship nearly sank Cammell Laird.

https://www.ft.com/content/a48d1515-066 ... b435e15ba7

The polar research ship the UK public wanted to name Boaty McBoatface blew a serious hole in the finances of British shipbuilder Cammell Laird, forcing it to seek emergency shareholder support.

The Birkenhead yard ran up £37.4m of losses on the £200m contract to build the ship, which was eventually named the Sir David Attenborough, and had to be rescued by its shareholders, accounts published at the end of December reveal. It also took a £15.8m impairment charge.

Peel Group, the property and investment group owned by John Whittaker, and DWS, the asset management arm of Deutsche Bank, invested an undisclosed amount in 2019 that prevented the 200-year-old company running aground.

The 15,000 tonne British Antarctic Survey ship was a bespoke vessel and the biggest built in Birkenhead since 1992. It was launched in 2019, two years late, and management admitted it was a bigger than expected challenge.

“We have learned some lessons. It was a very complex project,” Mark Whitworth, a Cammell Laird director, told the Financial Times.

The accounts for the year ended March 31 2019 show that shareholders had to put in “substantial additional funds” because of “significant cash flow pressures”. There was a net £13.7m cash outflow, leaving £3.6m in the bank.

The group’s auditors signed off the business as a going concern only after “taking account of the ongoing support confirmed by the company’s owner”.

Cammell Laird made a pre-tax loss of £35.6m, up from £897,000 the year before while turnover fell to £88.6m from £154.2m.

Mr Whitworth said it had taken the impairment charge as it would only take on such a project in future as part of a consortium where a bigger company could take the pricing risk.

The government wanted to boost the British shipbuilding industry by using a UK yard and captured attention with an online public poll to name the vessel. The name Boaty McBoatface topped the poll but was rejected and used for an unmanned submarine it carries instead.

The 128m vessel is capable of breaking through ice 1m thick and has a crew of 30, laboratories and accommodation for up to 60 scientists and support staff.

Cammell Laird, founded in the 1820s, closed in 1993 but was revived as a repair business in the following years. John Syvret, its owner, brought back the Cammell Laird name in 2007 and it began building small vessels, as well as a section of the aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Mr Syvret was executive chairman and owned 25 per cent. Peel and DWS bought him out in July and he left the company. They drafted in David McGinley, who runs shipbuilder A&P, which is part of the same group, as chief executive.

Mr Whitworth, who is chief executive of Peel Ports, said the shareholders now had oversight of the management and Laird had a “strong pipeline of business”. It was not intending redundancies among the 900-strong workforce, he said. “We are very keen to support the business because of its long term potential.”

It is bidding for a £1bn contract to build at least two naval support ships for the UK, in a consortium with BAE Systems, Babcock International and Rolls-Royce, and for five Type 31e frigates. It has a 10-year contract to service other naval support ships, and work on nuclear submarines and frigates.

The sale of Laird was part of the deal when Australian Super, a pension fund, invested in Peel Ports in February. It took a 25 per cent stake, leaving Peel with 37.6 per cent and DWS with 37.4 per cent.

SW1
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

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http://www.defence-and-security.com/fea ... g-8449011/

It has now been just over a year since the Belfast based shipyard was rescued from administration by InfraStrata; an organisation focused on the development, commercialisation and operation of advanced high-value strategic infrastructure facilities across the globe.
Overturning myths that British shipbuilding is no longer competitive and viable, John Wood, Group CEO of Harland & Wolff, saw a different vision and now, with the newly acquired Harland & Wolff (Appledore) site, the company is ready to engage with a multitude of maritime and modern naval programs.
DSSI spoke with John Wood to discuss how they have turned Harland & Wolff into one of the most competitive shipyard partners of choice for international navies and operators, as well as what we can expect in the future when it comes to advancements in modern naval combat support and design.

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

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Infrastra, owners of Harland and Wolff and Appledore have just bought fabricators BiFab out of administration. The company specialised in support for the North Sea oil and gas industry but only currently employs 29 workers.

https://polaris.brighterir.com/public/i ... ry/x8oe5pr

They are citing lack of current heavy fabricating capacity in the UK. They seem as interested in offshore energy as shipbuilding but do say:

Growth in UK Shipbuilding

Following recent announcements in relation to shipbuilding with a specific reference to Belfast and Appledore, management believes that the shipbuilding strategy that it has put in place is closely aligned to Government policy and could lead to some large contracts, both from Government and the private sector. Accordingly, a number of negotiations are currently taking place with a view to consummating multiple shipbuilding contracts, conversion projects and significant fabrication works in due course.


http://www.bifab.co.uk/view/about-us.aspx

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

In the small print there is also this (nothing to hint to a 'mega' size):
"given Arnish's access to Stornoway Port and deep-water areas, it is an attractive location for the repairs, maintenance and new build programmes for local ferry and maritime operators. A full business case will be developed for a floating dock in this area"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:In the small print there is also this (nothing to hint to a 'mega' size):
That print is ludicrously small.

This is an easier read:

https://www.infrastrataplc.com/infrastr ... -scotland/

dmereifield
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by dmereifield »

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politi ... reloaded=1

It seems that the Ukranian deal is still a go, apparently. 8 x 50-65 meter missile attack craft, 4 UK built (planned start date early 2022) and 4 Ukrainian built....a lot still up in the air apparently, the ships and missiles need to be designed (if the article is correct)...

tomuk
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by tomuk »

All the previous version of the BAE nee VT missile boats have had Exocet missile and Thales Netherlands CMS/Radar

Poiuytrewq
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Is the promised renaissance finally underway?

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... conference

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Wow, about the time, too:
" we’re going to be sending you a much clearer demand signal about what we’re trying to achieve with our procurement programmes – for the first time releasing a 30-year pipeline of all Government vessel procurements over 150 tons."

Now shipyards can decide in good time where to co-operate and where to compete head-on; the 'winner takes it all' which - in want of visibility of next orders - has tended to kill off firms... until there's one left.
- and then, the client (the cause of it in the first place) starts to complain about :shock: monopolistic pricing
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tempest414
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Tempest414 »

It will great to see a 30 year plan but it has to be set against that if UK ship building is not close to overseas market some contracts will be lost i.e it has to be within 30%

Poiuytrewq
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Poiuytrewq »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Now shipyards can decide in good time where to co-operate and where to compete head-on; the 'winner takes it all' which - in want of visibility of next orders - has tended to kill off firms... until there's one left.
- and then, the client (the cause of it in the first place) starts to complain about monopolistic pricing
In the short term there should ample opportunities for all of the yards.

The National shipbuilding strategy however can only be deemed a success when feast and famine is consigned to history.

jonas
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by jonas »

Sheffield Forgemasters make major investment :-

https://www.thestar.co.uk/business/forg ... ld-3206219

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

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jonas wrote:Sheffield Forgemasters make major investment :-
This is the direct result of the direct Government intervention that was being discussed to save Forgemasters just before Christmas.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Poiuytrewq »

C'mon Boris, just another Billion!

https://splash247.com/1-4bn-sought-to-r ... pbuilding/

Still waiting on the renaissance.....

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Isn't it better to invest in ships
... and the industry can then invest for a sustainable future?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Poiuytrewq
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Poiuytrewq »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Isn't it better to invest in ships
Sounds good but where are the orders/competitions or even basic outlines of these programmes from HMG? Industry needs support now, all that is being provided thus far is hot air.

FSS?
MRSS?
T32?
T83?
The modified Bay(s)?

Nothing but radio silence....

So far the shipbuilding renaissance, widely trumpeted by HMG amounts to little more than wind and piss.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Poiuytrewq wrote:FSS?
MRSS?
T32?
T83?
The modified Bay(s)?
I believe the first and the last (at least one examplar) will go ahead
... would not be surprised for the others to appear as the 'topic' in the next defence review!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Lord Jim »

Poiuytrewq wrote:So far the shipbuilding renaissance, widely trumpeted by HMG amounts to little more than wind and piss.
But that is how it has been for generations and we build the Senior Civil Service on the same principal. :D

dmereifield
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by dmereifield »

Yes, we do need HMG to pull their fingers out and crack on, not just with the RN/RFA ships, but also with the ship to be dedicated to Prince Philip and the Ukranian ships, too. Seems to be plenty of work to keep 4 shipyards busy (including T26 and T31) over the next decade, we just need HMG to place the orders and give the yards confidence to invest and train etc

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Tempest414
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Tempest414 »

On top of this HMG should be helping to fund the new fishing fleet as when we get to take back UK fishing grounds

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

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Tempest414 wrote:On top of this HMG should be helping to fund the new fishing fleet as when we get to take back UK fishing grounds
And when is that going to be then? At the moment we're tied into fishing quotas with the EU until 2026. And after that there will be annual negotiations when EU fishing in UK waters could go up or down.

In the meantime UK fish exports to the continent have nosedived, so if anything our fishing fleet is going to shrink rather than expand.

To be honest there's absolutely no point in building up the UK fishing fleet until domestic demand for fish caught in UK waters increases hugely. We just don't eat enough herring and mackerel.

dmereifield
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by dmereifield »

RichardIC wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:On top of this HMG should be helping to fund the new fishing fleet as when we get to take back UK fishing grounds
And when is that going to be then? At the moment we're tied into fishing quotas with the EU until 2026. And after that there will be annual negotiations when EU fishing in UK waters could go up or down.

In the meantime UK fish exports to the continent have nosedived, so if anything our fishing fleet is going to shrink rather than expand.

To be honest there's absolutely no point in building up the UK fishing fleet until domestic demand for fish caught in UK waters increases hugely.
Haven't seafood exports to the EU recovered already? I'm sure I've seen some data and news articles to that effect

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Tempest414
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by Tempest414 »

I am sure if the EU don't want our fish then China will and the EU know it

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RichardIC
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Re: UK Shipbuilding

Post by RichardIC »

dmereifield wrote:Haven't seafood exports to the EU recovered already? I'm sure I've seen some data and news articles to that effect
Don't know. But we have just failed to reach an agreement with Norway on fisheries, so that's less cod we're going to be catching. A fish that we actually eat a considerable amount of we're now going to need to import more.

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