Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Mercator
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

Boeing provided an extended PR piece in Breaking Defence. The usual sort of gumph, but a nugget worth mentioning:

“We see tremendous opportunities to begin test and evaluation, given that we’re buying a system very similar to the U.K. E-7. Much of the testing can actually be done on a U.K. E-7 or a Wedgetail, so tremendous opportunities, especially with test and evaluation.” – Steven Wert, Program Executive Officer Digital, Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Air Force PEO Looks to Speed Up Program Start, Testing for Wedgetail, Aug. 11, 2022.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/rea ... um=twitter

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

Decent article. A lot of, "it's classified", but reasonable.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/t ... capable-of
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Clive F
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Clive F »

Good job we didn't spend loads of money updating our E3's!

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by NickC »

Always did wonder about the survivability of large commercial aircraft like the 737/ E-7 flying at 35,000 ft as thought would be meat and drink to long range AA missile systems like S-300 / S-400 and the 600kg Vympel R-37 AAM, assume E-7 must be fitted with classified sophisticated soft kill EW systems and decoys.

The E-7 Northrop Grumman’s Multirole Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) radar, AESA & L-band, developed around the turn of the century for the cancelled E-10 MC2A, a generation ahead of the mechanically scanned AN/APY-1/2 radars used in the E-3.

L-band long waveband radar comes with fairly low discrimination though better able at picking up LO stealth aircraft, the USN funding on a low scale a possible future E-3 replacement radar the North Star High-Gain UESA, an AESA radar with a two band antenna, UHF and S-band antennas with dual polarization, the UHF-band 400 -1 GHz with a 2D filtering imaging technique called space-time adaptive processing to provides early warning detection of low flying stealth aircraft against dense background clutter both over land and sea, targets detected by the UHF-band then cue the shorter wavelength S-band 2.3-3.7 GHz antenna to provide a more precise targeting at long range. Disadvantages is that dual band radars can be subject to mutual interference.
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bobp
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by bobp »

New spending on facility for E7.....

https://www.forces.net/services/raf/raf ... e-aircraft

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Good article on the E7 and why the US would like to get them ASAP

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/03 ... t-the-e-7/

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by NickC »

NickC wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 13:10 Always did wonder about the survivability of large commercial aircraft like the 737/ E-7 flying at 35,000 ft as thought would be meat and drink to long range AA missile systems like S-300 / S-400 and the 600kg Vympel R-37 AAM, assume E-7 must be fitted with classified sophisticated soft kill EW systems and decoys.
@ bobp post thanks for ref, from the write up it appears the USAF $1.2 billion E-7A development funding previously mentioned will partially fund an update to E-7 ESM/EW suite taken from EC-37B Compass Call, F-35 and F-15EX fighters. (The new USAF EC-37B Compass Call EW aircraft will be based on the Gulfstream G550, Conformal Airborne Early Warning Aircraft (CAEW) airframe, which uses BAE Inc N.H. EW next gen SABER tech, transitioning from hardware to software defined hardware as used in the previous gen EC-130H Compass Call and Lockheed also funded BAE Inc with half a billion$ Dec'21 to update the F-35's AN/ASQ-239 high-performance EW mission system.)

Has the RAF the equivalent ESM signals analysis to locate the air defenses and the EW attack capability a/c as the USAF EC-37B or the USN EC-18G Growler's to allow coordinated attacks with anti-radiation missiles eg SPEAR EW), to suppress integrated air defence systems

https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/articl ... ll-upgrade
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

At least we will have spares….


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AndyC
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by AndyC »

This illustrates yet another reason to restore the original order for five aircraft. If we want to save money just make sure they're secondhand aircraft!

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

AndyC wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:19 This illustrates yet another reason to restore the original order for five aircraft. If we want to save money just make sure they're secondhand aircraft!
2nd hand aircraft do not necessarily save you money it may actual cost you more depending on what mod standard the aircraft are at and how much non recurring engineering work is required to bring them to the same standard as e7 configuration aircraft. Also what you find when you start stripping them down!

You want all aircraft at the same effectivity and the best way to attempt to achieve that is all new. The airframe choice was poor one.
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Little J
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 09:16 At least we will have spares….

Interesting its not the 1st of April :wtf:

Surely the MESA radars must be a large part of the costs of these aircraft?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Little J wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:41 Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?
The donor airframe on which wedgetail was developed was from quite an old BBJ configuration and not many were made concurrently, so they’re hard to find in a reasonable state that are available.

Hence why it think the usaf deal is taking longer than some might have expected they will use a different 737 configuration and all will be new builds..

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Jdam wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:45
SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 09:16 At least we will have spares….

Interesting its not the 1st of April :wtf:

Surely the MESA radars must be a large part of the costs of these aircraft?
Well yes if you take the experience of sentinel the radar cost quite a bit more than the aircraft did!

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:48
Little J wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:41 Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?
The donor airframe on which wedgetail was developed was from quite an old BBJ configuration and not many were made concurrently, so they’re hard to find in a reasonable state that are available.

Hence why it think the usaf deal is taking longer than some might have expected they will use a different 737 configuration and all will be new builds..
Wasn't our 3rd air frame a new build, whats changed since then?

new guy
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by new guy »

AndyC wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:19 This illustrates yet another reason to restore the original order for five aircraft. If we want to save money just make sure they're secondhand aircraft!
They already are...
For this years wish i wish
a. +2 wedge-tail
b. +13 Spanish A400m
c. + Some amount of F-35B (Resent order by US DoD for $7.8bn for 126 aircraft averages about $62m per aircraft).
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Jdam wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:53
SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:48
Little J wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:41 Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?
The donor airframe on which wedgetail was developed was from quite an old BBJ configuration and not many were made concurrently, so they’re hard to find in a reasonable state that are available.

Hence why it think the usaf deal is taking longer than some might have expected they will use a different 737 configuration and all will be new builds..
Wasn't our 3rd air frame a new build, whats changed since then?
The 737NG production line has stopped our third airframe was one of the last off the line. All 737s production lines are now MAX apart from the P8 line. More E-7 config can be built on this line but they would be 'one offs'. As SW1 suggests the slow pace behind USAF E7s is probably due to negotiations\investigations over an appropriate config.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SouthernOne »

tomuk wrote: 08 May 2023, 16:00
Jdam wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:53
SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:48
Little J wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:41 Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?
The donor airframe on which wedgetail was developed was from quite an old BBJ configuration and not many were made concurrently, so they’re hard to find in a reasonable state that are available.

Hence why it think the usaf deal is taking longer than some might have expected they will use a different 737 configuration and all will be new builds..
Wasn't our 3rd air frame a new build, whats changed since then?
The 737NG production line has stopped our third airframe was one of the last off the line. All 737s production lines are now MAX apart from the P8 line. More E-7 config can be built on this line but they would be 'one offs'. As SW1 suggests the slow pace behind USAF E7s is probably due to negotiations\investigations over an appropriate config.
The USAF program is not really "slow" though as a firm order using new build airframes has only just been placed. To put things into perspective the currently reported order backlog from commercial operators for 737 MAX is 3,600 aircraft.

Why wouldn't they just build original E-7 configuration airframes? That would be a lot easier and simpler than going through design, testing and certification processes for a new airframe configuration. Early on the E-7 program issues identified in flight testing required significant redesign of the radar structure. I doubt they would want to go through that again, adding years to the delivery timetable, while also losing the advantage of leveraging off certification work already completed by other E-7 operators.

On top of the USAF order for 26 airframes, there will likely be an order for NATO aircraft, while other E-3 operators like France will be assessing their future needs. So not really "one off" builds.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

SouthernOne wrote: 10 May 2023, 03:37
tomuk wrote: 08 May 2023, 16:00
Jdam wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:53
SW1 wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:48
Little J wrote: 06 May 2023, 10:41 Surely Boeing should be able to say what aircraft to get... "Buy from such and such airline"...?
The donor airframe on which wedgetail was developed was from quite an old BBJ configuration and not many were made concurrently, so they’re hard to find in a reasonable state that are available.

Hence why it think the usaf deal is taking longer than some might have expected they will use a different 737 configuration and all will be new builds..
Wasn't our 3rd air frame a new build, whats changed since then?
The 737NG production line has stopped our third airframe was one of the last off the line. All 737s production lines are now MAX apart from the P8 line. More E-7 config can be built on this line but they would be 'one offs'. As SW1 suggests the slow pace behind USAF E7s is probably due to negotiations\investigations over an appropriate config.
The USAF program is not really "slow" though as a firm order using new build airframes has only just been placed. To put things into perspective the currently reported order backlog from commercial operators for 737 MAX is 3,600 aircraft.

Why wouldn't they just build original E-7 configuration airframes?
Because they don't make them anymore. 99% of the production and logistics chain has switched to 737MAX config frames. NG frames in a 800/900/custom hybrid config are being made for P8 on a dedicated line.
That would be a lot easier and simpler than going through design, testing and certification processes for a new airframe configuration. Early on the E-7 program issues identified in flight testing required significant redesign of the radar structure. I doubt they would want to go through that again, adding years to the delivery timetable, while also losing the advantage of leveraging off certification work already completed by other E-7 operators.

On top of the USAF order for 26 airframes, there will likely be an order for NATO aircraft, while other E-3 operators like France will be assessing their future needs. So not really "one off" builds.
It is completely possible for Boeing to re-open production and build more E7 config, BBJ/700/800 hybrid, frames but the logistics tail would need to be in place and the impact on P8 production considered. But Boeing aren't going to do that without appropriate remuneration and guarantees on numbers from DOD.

Add to that the usual desire by US Mil and DOD to add their on requirements above and beyond E7 Aus\UK\elsewhere spec, and Boeings inability to do anything right, see KC46 and things might not appear to be as easy as one would hope.
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Mercator
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

Um, possibly a few misunderstandings creeping into this discussion. To quote Rod Meranda, Boeing’s head of business development for its domestic and international E-7 program:

Building the E-7

It typically takes Boeing four years to make an E-7, though the company says it could shave about six months off that timeline by procuring long-lead items in advance. It takes two years to make the commercial 737-700, and then two more years “chopping this airplane up” to modify it into the E-7.

Meranda said that when the Air Force’s E-7 program kicks into gear, which could happen later this decade, Boeing wants to build four per year.

To make an E-7 for the Air Force, Boeing will first buy a 737 tube from Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas, and bring it to its factory in Renton, Washington. Once the tube is on the factory’s “line 3,” which is dedicated to military work and is where Boeing builds P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol planes, Boeing will start beefing it up so it can handle the extra wear and tear military flying dishes out.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/03 ... t-the-e-7/

One way to conceptualise the production of the E-7 is like this: they are never "new builds" in the sense that someone builds them from scratch. They are all mods. Without a 737-700 that's already completed (or perhaps, just the fuselage, or "tube" discussed in the article above), the rest of the build can't proceed. It's pretty much just a mod-kit for a vanilla aircraft. You have to build a vanilla aircraft first, then modify it. That's why Australia, Korea, Turkey and now the UK can knock one up in any old MRO depot. Seemingly the US will do the same. There is no indication that they intend to build the baseline 737-700 from scratch in Seattle at the P-8 line. The article above says they are shipping them from Kansas first.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Mercator wrote: 11 May 2023, 05:50 Um, possibly a few misunderstandings creeping into this discussion. To quote Rod Meranda, Boeing’s head of business development for its domestic and international E-7 program:

Building the E-7

It typically takes Boeing four years to make an E-7, though the company says it could shave about six months off that timeline by procuring long-lead items in advance. It takes two years to make the commercial 737-700, and then two more years “chopping this airplane up” to modify it into the E-7.

Meranda said that when the Air Force’s E-7 program kicks into gear, which could happen later this decade, Boeing wants to build four per year.

To make an E-7 for the Air Force, Boeing will first buy a 737 tube from Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas, and bring it to its factory in Renton, Washington. Once the tube is on the factory’s “line 3,” which is dedicated to military work and is where Boeing builds P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol planes, Boeing will start beefing it up so it can handle the extra wear and tear military flying dishes out.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/03 ... t-the-e-7/

One way to conceptualise the production of the E-7 is like this: they are never "new builds" in the sense that someone builds them from scratch. They are all mods. Without a 737-700 that's already completed (or perhaps, just the fuselage, or "tube" discussed in the article above), the rest of the build can't proceed. It's pretty much just a mod-kit for a vanilla aircraft. You have to build a vanilla aircraft first, then modify it. That's why Australia, Korea, Turkey and now the UK can knock one up in any old MRO depot. Seemingly the US will do the same. There is no indication that they intend to build the baseline 737-700 from scratch in Seattle at the P-8 line. The article above says they are shipping them from Kansas first.
spirit aero systems makes 70% of all 737 structures in Kansas have done for 50 years as it was a Boeing plant until it was spun out. Hence them shipping to Renton for final assembly!

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by new guy »

Can someone do E-7 wedgetail vs GlobalEye AEW&C by Saab? how do they compare?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SouthernOne »

With over 6,000 737NGs currently in commercial service, the last delivered to an airline a couple of years ago, it will be a long, long time before E-7 operators will need to think too deeply about logistics support or availability of parts.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Mercator wrote: 11 May 2023, 05:50 Um, possibly a few misunderstandings creeping into this discussion. To quote Rod Meranda, Boeing’s head of business development for its domestic and international E-7 program:

Building the E-7

It typically takes Boeing four years to make an E-7, though the company says it could shave about six months off that timeline by procuring long-lead items in advance. It takes two years to make the commercial 737-700, and then two more years “chopping this airplane up” to modify it into the E-7.

Meranda said that when the Air Force’s E-7 program kicks into gear, which could happen later this decade, Boeing wants to build four per year.

To make an E-7 for the Air Force, Boeing will first buy a 737 tube from Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas, and bring it to its factory in Renton, Washington. Once the tube is on the factory’s “line 3,” which is dedicated to military work and is where Boeing builds P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol planes, Boeing will start beefing it up so it can handle the extra wear and tear military flying dishes out.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/03 ... t-the-e-7/

One way to conceptualise the production of the E-7 is like this: they are never "new builds" in the sense that someone builds them from scratch. They are all mods. Without a 737-700 that's already completed (or perhaps, just the fuselage, or "tube" discussed in the article above), the rest of the build can't proceed. It's pretty much just a mod-kit for a vanilla aircraft. You have to build a vanilla aircraft first, then modify it. That's why Australia, Korea, Turkey and now the UK can knock one up in any old MRO depot. Seemingly the US will do the same. There is no indication that they intend to build the baseline 737-700 from scratch in Seattle at the P-8 line. The article above says they are shipping them from Kansas first.
E7s aren't standard 737-700s they are based on the first 737 BBJ which is a 700 with '800 wings' and extra fuel tanks in the hold. To fit the radar they remove a section of the upper fuselage and replace it with a 'beefed up part'.

To build more E7 you either need a supply of second hand 737 BBJ1 or you need to build them from scratch. Boeing are building mostly 737MAX and a lot smaller number of P8s (an 800 fuselage with 900 wings but the fuselage is different to a true 800 one). The fuselages are shipped in from Wichita to Renton for final assembly.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

Another interesting article hinting at developments in the US that may have beneficial consequences for the UK.

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