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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 05 Dec 2022, 23:57
by SouthernOne
Publications out of the ADF and RAAF seem to use GMTI or Ground MTI when specifically referring to ground targets. So, use of MTI to include airborne targets is totally consistent.

Given the timetable the USAF is working to, I doubt there will any major new development for their initial procurement. A follow on “bock 2” upgrade might be more ambitious, which should suit the RAAF and RAF just fine.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 06 Dec 2022, 00:44
by tomuk
But the USAF don't casually mention things in press releases, MTI is in there because they are making a point. Is it a bit of lipstick to make E7 look better or more relevant? Or which is my concern, see KC46, is it a portent of changes USAF want to make to E7 to make it their own. They want two prototypes to be delivered in 2027/2028. What is necessary to prototype and take five years? Just send two radars and BBJs to Birmingham and get your two prototypes.
Is the so called economies of scale beneficial to existing E7 users when their opinions maybe overcome by the USAF gorilla.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 06 Dec 2022, 00:59
by SouthernOne
One of the key back stories to the USAF buy has been the public acknowledgement that they could not transition to a space based system for air battle space management. That had been their public plan for some time. So satellites will be limited to detection of fixed and “non moving targets” for the foreseeable future.

I suspect that is the point being made.

If they’ve concluded that E-8 isn’t survivable as a GMTI platform, I doubt they’d try to accomplish that wth a modified E-7. Expendable drones or UAVs seem more appropriate.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 02 Feb 2023, 08:40
by SW1
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... etail-buy/

RAF hope to return e7 to 5 on the poster child procurement of why defence is in the mess it is.

Buying things on made up cost numbers while telling everyone that warned them that they were stupid and didn’t have access to the full facts….

Wonder how many man hours and staff diverted from other task has this renegotiation resulted in.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Feb 2023, 16:16
by Jdam
Interesting, I wonder if the RAF might have had it agreed in principle behind closed door for 5 and are now awaiting formal announcement or is he just fishing for support for the idea of 5? :think:

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Feb 2023, 23:10
by pko100
An increase to 5 would be good news and is very necessary.

Allegedly from a friend who knows, the original E-7 programme was made "affordable" based on a series of pretty spurious assumptions regarding savings of not keeping the E-3s upgrading them etc. In old MoD speak definitely a case of entryism.

I remember the HCDC getting stuck into the procurement strategy especially why no formal competition was ever undertaken. they seemed very keen on the SAAB offering.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 18:10
by bobp

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 20:10
by serge750
That could be good news for Oz,UK & others for potential upgrade path...

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 20:14
by Little J
Be even better news for Boeing considering how fooked they are at the moment :lol:

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 20:35
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 20:14 Be even better news for Boeing considering how fooked they are at the moment :lol:
Far better chance of the RAF circling back and picking up two more as a direct FMS in the future too if this goes ahead....

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 22:42
by Little J
NATO might get them to replace their E-3's too

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 10:36
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 22:42 NATO might get them to replace their E-3's too
That would certainly make sense. If NATO order 8 or 9 on top of Uncle Sam's order, they will bring the unit price right down, certainly opportunity there for the RAF to tag on two additional airframes.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 11:19
by Timmymagic
Little J wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 22:42 NATO might get them to replace their E-3's too
If the USAF bail on E-3 as they seem to be planning the NATO fleet will have to make the jump as well. France and Saudi too. Suspect Chile might end up being the last user...they might have a decent supply of parts to run with.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 13:14
by SW1
I will take a small bet the USAF will not operate as many as 26 e7s

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 22:41
by SouthernOne
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 13:14 I will take a small bet the USAF will not operate as many as 26 e7s
Aircraft available for operations, a number undergoing maintenance or upgrade at any one time, plus aircraft for training. It all adds up. Then the remaining aircraft need to be available across Europe, the Middle East, and the vast distances of the Indo-Pacific.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 01:18
by Mercator
And, frankly, anything on the ramp at Kadena on day 1 will get whacked.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 09:38
by Clive F
As they are looking to get 26, I would have thought it was worth re-engineering for MAX airframe as I believe most of the difference is the engines. They can then buy new airframes

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
by SouthernOne
Clive F wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:38 As they are looking to get 26, I would have thought it was worth re-engineering for MAX airframe as I believe most of the difference is the engines. They can then buy new airframes
737 NG based aircraft are still in production for the P-8 program. There are some modifications for the P8, but it’s essentially an NG airframe.

The USAF will be buying new airframes. They’ve publicly ruled out converting used aircraft.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
by SW1
SouthernOne wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 22:41
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 13:14 I will take a small bet the USAF will not operate as many as 26 e7s
Aircraft available for operations, a number undergoing maintenance or upgrade at any one time, plus aircraft for training. It all adds up. Then the remaining aircraft need to be available across Europe, the Middle East, and the vast distances of the Indo-Pacific.
Your assuming a like for like replacement.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 09:54
by SouthernOne
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
SouthernOne wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 22:41
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 13:14 I will take a small bet the USAF will not operate as many as 26 e7s
Aircraft available for operations, a number undergoing maintenance or upgrade at any one time, plus aircraft for training. It all adds up. Then the remaining aircraft need to be available across Europe, the Middle East, and the vast distances of the Indo-Pacific.
Your assuming a like for like replacement.
Twenty six is not a large number for an airforce the size of the USAF. The RAAF is a lot smaller and operates 6.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 10:27
by NickC
Feb 28 the USAF awarded a $1.2 billion contract to Boeing for the E-7A Rapid Prototype program to begin development of two new variants.

Understand one variant due to the US Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) insisting on military open-systems software to ensure component interoperability in new systems and therefore Boeing funded to replace their propriety architecture system (which RAF locked into) with new open-systems software with the USAF owning the data rights. Reflecting the history of sometimes stupendous software costs incurred to integrate new hardware into current operational aircraft (US Army similarly pushing their Modular Open Systems Architecture (MOSA), which allows systems from different manufacturers to be integrated seamlessly on an aircraft as they are built with common standards, coding language and interfaces available to all contractors).

Have seen no indication of the what second variant is to be funded by the R&D.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 10:31
by SW1
SouthernOne wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:54
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
SouthernOne wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 22:41
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 13:14 I will take a small bet the USAF will not operate as many as 26 e7s
Aircraft available for operations, a number undergoing maintenance or upgrade at any one time, plus aircraft for training. It all adds up. Then the remaining aircraft need to be available across Europe, the Middle East, and the vast distances of the Indo-Pacific.
Your assuming a like for like replacement.
Twenty six is not a large number for an airforce the size of the USAF. The RAAF is a lot smaller and operates 6.
RAAF has operated 6 let’s see if they continue to.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 11:04
by Clive F
SouthernOne wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
Clive F wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:38 As they are looking to get 26, I would have thought it was worth re-engineering for MAX airframe as I believe most of the difference is the engines. They can then buy new airframes
737 NG based aircraft are still in production for the P-8 program. There are some modifications for the P8, but it’s essentially an NG airframe.

The USAF will be buying new airframes. They’ve publicly ruled out converting used aircraft.
P8 is a 737 800 with 900 wings, but E7 is a 737 700.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 03 Mar 2023, 18:15
by tomuk
Clive F wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 11:04
SouthernOne wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:48
Clive F wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 09:38 As they are looking to get 26, I would have thought it was worth re-engineering for MAX airframe as I believe most of the difference is the engines. They can then buy new airframes
737 NG based aircraft are still in production for the P-8 program. There are some modifications for the P8, but it’s essentially an NG airframe.

The USAF will be buying new airframes. They’ve publicly ruled out converting used aircraft.
P8 is a 737 800 with 900 wings, but E7 is a 737 700.
The E7s are 737-700ER\BBJ that is 737 700 with 737 800 wings.

Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Posted: 04 Mar 2023, 22:18
by SouthernOne
NickC wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 10:27 Feb 28 the USAF awarded a $1.2 billion contract to Boeing for the E-7A Rapid Prototype program to begin development of two new variants.

Understand one variant due to the US Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) insisting on military open-systems software to ensure component interoperability in new systems and therefore Boeing funded to replace their propriety architecture system (which RAF locked into) with new open-systems software with the USAF owning the data rights. Reflecting the history of sometimes stupendous software costs incurred to integrate new hardware into current operational aircraft (US Army similarly pushing their Modular Open Systems Architecture (MOSA), which allows systems from different manufacturers to be integrated seamlessly on an aircraft as they are built with common standards, coding language and interfaces available to all contractors).

Have seen no indication of the what second variant is to be funded by the R&D.
The media release if kind of poorly written. It depends a lot on where you put commas in that sentence. It could be two examples of a unique US variant or 2 distinct variants unique to the US. Either way, Boeing has already tested open-systems architecture mission system software on a RAAF aircraft.