Integrated Review (previously SDSR 2020)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:I was thinking of posting some glass half full posts today
... when did you last manage :) ?
inch wrote:Yes it's just a big government farse of a stitch up
clinch wrote:So what will be the defence cuts?
What a cheerful bunch of Muskateers; at least D'Artagnan has something else... but not that much more cheerful, l to say:
zanahoria wrote:The first of many Brexit dividends.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

Defence has been the Treasury's go to "Piggy Bank" for too long. They have to make the case that what programmes are currently on going are to fix the problems actions by previous Governments caused by not have a proper joined up defence policy. Yes they may be a few programmes in the Equipment Programme that could be sacrificed, but only if that money stays within Defence and is used to fund other important programmes. If they want to save around £15Bn then a sizable chunk should come from the Overseas Aid Budget for starters. As for Defence I am hard pushed to think of any major programmes that have any fat left on them, and savings are going to mean capability and capacity cuts, and as we already know these can take years to correct, as the Army is trying to do now. In fact I would welcome any suggestions that people here can come up with beside micro salami slicing everything.

Oh dear the class is half empty again :thumbdown:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: any suggestions that people here can come up with beside micro salami slicing everything.
Yesterday (forgetting the thread already) I used the term " cheese slicing" as in Swiss cheese, with holes in it, when you start. On the future shape of the BA -thread I was just expanding on this: that after the Iraq/ A-stan expeditionary stints, the bulk of the army was left with 'holes' in it, having to hang on to clearly obsolescent equipment, to fund the fielded force which was working under fairly exceptional circumstances
- when you, then, start to apply the thin slicing in the quest of achieving savings - allegedly to fund the 'priorities' - guess what :?:
- you slice and slice... and just when the holes that were visible when you started go away: new ones become visible :!:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by dmereifield »

Lord Jim wrote:Defence has been the Treasury's go to "Piggy Bank" for too long. They have to make the case that what programmes are currently on going are to fix the problems actions by previous Governments caused by not have a proper joined up defence policy. Yes they may be a few programmes in the Equipment Programme that could be sacrificed, but only if that money stays within Defence and is used to fund other important programmes. If they want to save around £15Bn then a sizable chunk should come from the Overseas Aid Budget for starters. As for Defence I am hard pushed to think of any major programmes that have any fat left on them, and savings are going to mean capability and capacity cuts, and as we already know these can take years to correct, as the Army is trying to do now. In fact I would welcome any suggestions that people here can come up with beside micro salami slicing everything.

Oh dear the class is half empty again :thumbdown:
Rumour has it that there's going to be more alignment of International Development funding with foreign policy and the national interest, along with changes to what the International Development budget can be spent on, so we might see the defence budget better remunerated for its contribution in international aid and disaster relief efforts. Perhaps we might even see that oft touted aid ship emerge. There's talk of better using the budget in terms of aligning with UK research priorities such as climate change and green technologies. Let's see

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

The issues it that there are international standard we have to adhere to regarding what we spend the money on for it to be classed as overseas aid and there count towards to the percentage of GDP. IF we don't follow the rules we can no longer trumpet out level of spending meeting the agreed international target.

dmereifield
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by dmereifield »

Fair enough, but I think this Government is willing to push the boundaries and explore the grey areas, both within such definitions an within the UK law that commits us to it (perhaps it may even change the law, if it feels it necessary to do so)

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

Personally I think we should scrap the percentage target of International Aid. We have always been generous in this area but with the level of money available, the Department finds itself looking for any project in order to spend its budget. Having a HADR/Hospital platform, by default stationed in the Caribbean during Hurricane Season would be a good use of the Departments money and still provide the Political headlines.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:meeting the agreed international target.
Can't remember when the UN upped the 0.x target to 0.7%, but only a couple of Nordics + the Netherlands reached it, prior to the LibDems extracting that commitment (and it was then made into a law).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

I had a light bulb moment, covered with a large amount of optimism this morning, don't worry I will be seeing a doctor on Monday. With the future review being run by the Cabinet Office this time around, and the fact that Mr Cummings is going to target the procurement process, what are the chances he will look at the Treasury imposed timescales for many projects. The slowing of development and delivery to maintain annual costs at the expense of increasing overall cost and decide to change things for the better? Could he review take a broader look and decide that certain programmes should be accelerated ti save money over time, meaning a modest increase in annual expenditure?

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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by bobp »

[quote="Lord Jim"]I had a light bulb moment, covered with a large amount of optimism this morning, don't worry I will be seeing a doctor on Monday. [/quote

Lets hope Mr Cummings has his light bulb moment as well. Treasury officials should not have final say in procurement apart from stumping up the money as needed, within budget of course.

serge750
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by serge750 »

Such enthusiasm !!! imagine if they done that for the T26 amongst other projects :clap: hope they will start looking at procurement for the long term benefit including industrial upkeeping of skills, but would that mean cutting somethings now so they can proclaim long term stability ?...

Would be interesting to get a total cost of how much money has been wasted on slowing down or speeding up & changing specs mid term on MOD projects ?

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

Just look at how much the slow down in the Carrier programme cost, we could probably have got two more T-26 from just that great, well thought out decision.

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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Lord Jim wrote:Just look at how much the slow down in the Carrier programme cost, we could probably have got two more T-26 from just that great, well thought out decision.
Slowing down in the middle of the program will cost a lot. But, how about planning to build slow from the beginning? The industry will prepare smaller work force (labors and engineers), smaller infrastructure (e.g. steel work) ?
Just genuine question.

The slow build rate of T26-hull1 "might be" reasonable when RN will build the latter hulls in 1.5-2 years drumbeat. In general, the first hull requires 1.3 - 1.5 times workload than the latter hulls.

Of course, faster is cheaper in general. But I guess (at least from my experience), slowing down in the middle is the largest cost driver...

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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by SW1 »

Deferring/cutting numbers/slowing down building are ALL symptoms of the same problem, the same problem that has despite all the review, the smart procurement nonsense repeated with the same results for decades. If you want a different outcome then the root problem needs to be addressed not the symptoms. The MOD continually stuffs to many programs into its budget under the pretext of wishful thinking on efficiency saving, program risk, currency and many others. Which means you end up without enough money to pay for what you want and the choices left are getting the begging bowl out, cut numbers, slow down builds or reduce numbers. Until the number of programs are reduced to meet a much simplified strategic goal then these continual rounds of eating there own young will continue every 2,3 5 years.

Lord Jim
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Lord Jim »

All good reasons for a Review based on a true threat assessment and Governmental Foreign Policy, actually working out what we need to meet these, being up front, honest, and dropping any idea of "Efficiencies", being part of any SDSR. If it seem the bill is going to be too high than the Government needs to reign in is Foreign Policy aspirations, but the funding, personnel and kit needed to counter the results of the Strategic Threat Assessment needs to be ring fenced and non negotiable.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

With all the talk of salami slicing (coming?), let's look at what the nominal £12 billion boost in the previous SDSR did/will buy?
- nine new Boeing P-8 maritime patrol aircraft; 13 minimum to match requirement rather than just plug a gap has been stated
- two new rapidly deployable ‘Strike Brigades’ will be formed by 2025 ; looks like we will have one operational by then
- Typhoons' (earlier models, to support fleet numbers) life to be extended and the number of squadrons will be increased by two, to seven; with "Tempest" the best is perhaps yet to come (an early RUSI title) for the capability of that fleet?
- eight Type 26 and "at least" another five ‘lite on fit-out' T31 variants; looks like we will have 1+5 when looking 7-8 years ahead of now, by which time the replacing of the rest of the ageing T23s will be as urgent as ever, and
- the acceleration of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter proc so that with 24 of those in service in 2023 (Jan -24?) rather than the eight originally planned, the ISD for both carriers could be met (the threshold having been set for 12 onboarded), though CEPP (= full capability?) is mysteriously set for three years later

There was talk about £2bn extra, too, for SF capabilities (surely only a part of the £2bn towards new Chinooks can be allocated for that specific purpose).

And since, the Protector proc has been slowed down (and multi-purposing them is also in the frame, so as to not just spend the money slower, but to get more for it)

Well, the leading in sentence had ' nominal' in it as the funding gap over the full 10-yr horizon is anything between £4-12 bn, with the likeliest outcome around £7 bn.
- let's be optimistic, and £12 bn is again 'coming'... but take off the above 7
- what will £5 bn buy, towards the highest priorities? And what are those priorities, btw ;) ?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:over the full 10-yr horizon is anything between £4-12 bn
sorry, typo in the above as I think NAO put the 'worst cases' aggregate number at £20bn
- but still 7 is the one that matters as it is the likeliest, to have to deal with
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

clinch
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by clinch »

Reading this, the likelihood is more cuts.

https://www.ft.com/content/27b81994-469 ... aQjVvg4sXE

Pasted here:

Britain’s public finances face a black hole in three years if the economy follows the path forecast by the Bank of England, breaking chancellor Sajid Javid’s new rules to guarantee a current budget surplus.

Financial Times calculations suggest that the lower rates of sustainable economic growth forecast by the BoE would leave the chancellor with a £12bn deficit by 2022-23, instead of the £5bn surplus laid out in the Conservative’s election manifesto.

The projections, based on modelling by the Office for Budget Responsibility, would see Mr Javid facing the difficult task of having to consider tax rises and more austerity before his first Budget on 11 March to ensure the fiscal watchdog gives his new budgetary rules a pass mark.

“We can’t run an overdraft forever on our day-to-day spending,” Mr Javid said when he outlined his new fiscal rules in November, in a move that left little room for extra day-to-day spending.

The OBR’s post-Brexit economic forecasts may not be as pessimistic as the BoE’s, but the two independent bodies usually have similar outlooks. The Treasury is fully aware of the challenging landscape for the public finances. 

Ministers and officials are currently working on policies to address the expected shortfall in tax revenues over the next few years alongside efforts to stimulate economic growth in the medium term. 

Although Mr Javid has not set an official target, he told the FT last month that raising sluggish economic growth was his top ambition and he hoped it might reach 2.7 and 2.8 per cent. That level of growth would alleviate challenges in the public finances without having to resort to tax increases.

“I want to really turbocharge growth,” the chancellor said, although he also acknowledged: “I know it’s much easier said than done.”

According to the BoE, Mr Javid’s mission to improve the performance of the economy is likely to prove even more challenging than he had thought. It estimated that the economy would grow no more than 1.1 per cent a year if the bank stuck to its 2 per cent inflation target.

Alongside a small amount of spare capacity, the BoE forecast the economy could grow by a maximum of 3.8 per cent in total over the next three years while keeping prices under control.

It blamed the poor outlook partly on government’s desire for a loose free trade agreement with the EU. “The rise in trade barriers as the UK leave the EU is projected to weigh on productivity growth,” the BoE said. 

But the BoE’s forecast of sustainable growth is far below the rate the official budgetary watchdog predicted when it last published a full forecast last March. Then, it thought 4.8 per cent growth was sustainable over the period to 2022-23. 

Using OBR ready-reckoners, a 1 per cent shortfall of gross domestic product would increase the government deficit by 0.7 per cent of GDP, implying additional borrowing of £17bn in 2022-23. 

Last March, before big revisions to the calculations of the deficit and public spending increases, the OBR predicted the government was set for a £37bn surplus on the current Budget in 2022-23.

The OBR and Treasury declined to comment on the FT’s calculations.

James Smith, research director of the Resolution Foundation, said the BoE’s downgrade of the potential growth rate was justified because elements of Britain’s productivity performance had not been this weak since the Victorian era, which had serious implications. “It creates a tough outlook for living standards and the public finances,” he said. 

With the government finances now looking tight, Mr Javid has written to other ministers seeking suggestions for 5 per cent savings from their budgets so the government can prioritise public spending in the autumn spending review. 

Ahead of the Budget, officials are also considering possible tax rises outside those areas where the government has pledged no increases or whether to slow the overall growth rate of public spending.

The government’s new fiscal rule is to balance the current budget in the third year of any forecast. 

The chancellor’s strong preference is to avoid raising taxes and use £100bn of capital spending firepower to improve the underlying performance of the economy.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

clinch wrote:Alongside a small amount of spare capacity, the BoE forecast the economy could grow by a maximum of 3.8 per cent in total over the next three years while keeping prices under control.

It blamed the poor outlook partly on government’s desire for a loose free trade agreement with the EU. “The rise in trade barriers as the UK leave the EU is projected to weigh on productivity growth,” the BoE said.

But the BoE’s forecast of sustainable growth is far below the rate the official budgetary watchdog predicted when it last published a full forecast last March. Then, it thought 4.8 per cent growth was sustainable over the period to 2022-23.

Using OBR ready-reckoners, a 1 per cent shortfall of gross domestic product would increase the government deficit by 0.7 per cent of GDP, implying additional borrowing of £17bn in 2022-23.

Last March, before big revisions to the calculations of the deficit and public spending increases, the OBR predicted the government was set for a £37bn surplus on the current Budget in 2022-23
.
Yes, at that time "we" had a nice little (heated?) argument about this here... all of course predicated on the "ability to pay" for defence... which is not the first priority for this Gvmnt; who seem to have learned from G. Brown how to go about buying votes, and go super-charged
- or were the promises/ intentions never meant to be kept :?:
... where is Trump's '00 trn infrastructure investment prgrm? Anyone seen it (since the elections :lol: )?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

May be the Gvmnt will get on with the SDSR once today's reshuffle is done and dusted?

Some prep steps have been taken already: The new Strategic Command includes the Permanent Joint Headquarters and the directorates for Intelligence, Medical Services, Information, Logistics and Support as well as Director Special Forces (with everything that he has at his disposal)
- so 'out' went the Joint Command (whether as a name change only... the review will be the 'proof of the pudding)

Interestingly also the below-threshold Ops/ fighting fall under the Command, for which the (also) new 6th Division will the 'purveyor of' capabilities with its Specialised Infantry Group headquartered at Imphal Barracks, York. The SIG now stands at 4 (small) inf. bns, but I seem to remember from the 2015 review that the target number was set higher. Again, much of the change is about renaming the Force Troops Command (FTC), but some of the constituent parts of the latter (8th Engineer Brigade, 1st Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Brigade, 1st Signal Brigade, 11th Signal Brigade and Headquarters West Midlands, 2nd Medical Brigade, 104th Logistic Support Brigade, 77th Brigade, 7th Air Defence Group) have been pre-integrated into the other divisions. Engineers for sure... difficult to make out from the announcements what the situation will be with AD & Logs.
- may be a cadre system is finally being adopted more broadly: the shell formations populated from the "central repository" with men & kit as per what the Op on hand is perceived to require
- one could say that there are already signs of this pattern emerging as leaving aside the three specialised rgmnts of the 1st Signal Bde signals are already (counting rgmnts, not billets) 1/3 from reserves,
- AND the 1st ISR Bde is almost 50/50 in personnel
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Zero Gravitas
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Zero Gravitas »

Times reports today:

*Review will report in time for comprehensive spending review in the autumn. Seen as a win for Cummings.
*will include foreign policy in most sweeping defence review since cold war.
*the review will not be cost neutral. There will be more money for defence.
*but cuts are expected in some areas to eliminate the “black hole”. Mainly cuts to the army and tank numbers.

Quotes:

”A reduction in the size of the army is being considered as part of the government’s foreign policy and defence review, which is set to end by the autumn in a victory for Dominic Cummings.”

“ The Ministry of Defence is in line for a funding increase after No 10 sources said that the review would not be “cost-neutral”. While some of the extra cash is likely to fund investment in cutting-edge weapons, cybercapabilities and space technology, the department’s multibillion-pound funding black hole in its ten-year equipment plan will have to be addressed.”

“ Cuts are expected and one option to achieve savings is to cut the size of the army, a government source said. Previous Tory commitments to retain the army at a minimum of 82,000 personnel were dropped from Mr Johnson’s manifesto. It came after repeated failures to meet that target in recent years because of a crisis in recruitment and retention. At present the service is about 9,000 soldiers short of the target.”

“ Tank numbers may also be cut as the prospect of an all-out land war recedes and hostile states continue to invest in information operations, cyberwarfare and other hybrid capabilities.”

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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by inch »

Just looking on wiki and said France spends 2.3%gdp and 63.8bill us dollar UK only 1.8% and 50 bill us Dollar ,we going to have to increase spend loads just to catch up with France .even Germany spends as 49.5bill about the same as UK and everybody slates them for their lack of spending ,just shows how way down we doing at this rate Europe soon wouldn't even see us as much of a benefit military and no bargaining chip with Europe on our present projection . Johnson saying they might increase UK budget I bet it won't go up and Match France , lucky if get 1bill increase a year. shameful for the great people in our forces and their commitment

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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by Cooper »

inch wrote:Just looking on wiki and said France spends 2.3%gdp and 63.8bill us dollar UK only 1.8% and 50 bill us Dollar ,we going to have to increase spend loads just to catch up with France .even Germany spends as 49.5bill about the same as UK and everybody slates them for their lack of spending ,just shows how way down we doing at this rate Europe soon wouldn't even see us as much of a benefit military and no bargaining chip with Europe on our present projection . Johnson saying they might increase UK budget I bet it won't go up and Match France , lucky if get 1bill increase a year. shameful for the great people in our forces and their commitment
France does not spend more on defence than the UK, Wiki is not a reliable source of information for such matters. Germany may spend $50bn but that is only about 1.5% in GDP terms, compared to the UK's 2%.

Also, a big chunk of French defence spending goes to funding the french police force, whose budget is included in the defence budget.

Take a chill pill, relax and take some time to get the real figures on defence spending in Europe.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

That 9,000 recruitment gap must save a cool bn a year (cutting a bde was said to save a bn, that was in 2010 but OK, a bde has 5-6k bods, but also has a fair bit of kit).
- over the 10-yr rolling horizon of the EP... problem solved?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: SDSR 2020

Post by dmereifield »

Presumably some of that increased spending will be the £5ish billion for the UK satellite system.

Not sure how much I believe cuts to tank numbers or the size of the Army: the'yre too visible, unpopular and fly in the face of the global Britain narrative. Perhaps it might happen with the decrease in the regulars offset by the same/higher number of reservists so that they can claim the overall number hasn't been cut (perhaps increased). Or, maybe they'll offset the numbers by increasing the RN/RAF numbers as another means of saying that the overall number of service personnel haven't been reduced, merely changes to service numbers to better reflect needs.

Still sceptical on reduced headcount

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